Seeking advice on letter to public health for permit to raise chickens

[chickortreat]

Quote:
Well, my way is "legal" too, actually. Unfortunately, many municipal governments/government entities pass unlawful ordinances/rules. I'm not real big on teaching to kids to ask permission to do things they actually have a 'right' to do. Such a mindset creates "Good little socialists"

There is a HUGE difference difference between advocating trying to "get away with" breaking the law, and standing openly in defiance of an unconstitutional/oppressive mandate. This countries founding fathers understood this concept perfectly.

Wonderful post! I daresay the majority of modern Americans don't understand the difference you speak of. As to whether something is legal or not......define "legal". The Third Reich was "legal", and they had the papers and the jackboots to prove it. Years ago, when someone wanted chickens, they got chickens. If the neighbor didn't like it, they spoke up. If they felt strongly enough about it, they fought in the yard or whatever. But it amounted to more than being a busybody yapping on the phone to the local yuppies about the neighbor's chickens. "Yes, I'd like to call and tell on my neighbor. He has chickens." "Is that so? Here's a quarter...call someone who cares." How would that work for the modern tattler? That, and everyone in the neighborhood laughing him/her to scorn.....

 

[brahmapapa]

the kinds of things that most municipalities are looking for are diagrams or drawings of your planned coop, how many you plan to have. Will they be all hens, that part is important to them for sound nusance reasons,They want to know how much poop they generate and how you plan to use or dispose of it. they want to be assured that you are going to maintain them in a sanitary manner and they want to know that they will not be allowed to disturn the neighbors.

 

[Woodcutterron]

Best to keep in mind that some things are so "thorough" . . .they simply get ignored and rejected without even opening it. If your petition for permission, needs an index . . . it's probably too much. If you want to go the "plead for something you have the right to do anyway" route . . . I'd recommend no more than two pages, and one is better. While it might seem like a good idea to write a book for these folks, most of their job consists of shuffling paper, and they really don't want to take the time reading something that even has a page seven . . .let alone a page 27. There is always the chance you'll get some bureaucrat who actually appreciates the effort, but I can assure ya'll . . .those are few and far between. I suppose it's worth a shot, but be ready to get shot down, and have a plan "b"

I've actually done this sort of advocation before by the way, on a number of issues, it isn't mere conjecture on my part. I find it amazing sometimes that people who often have never even been to a single council meeting will tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, heheh. Tip: I do.

I do try to change the image of keepers of backyard poultry. Most government entities see us as pesky, minor annoyances at best or 'passionate kooks'. I'd like them to see us as a powerful force to be reckoned with. My local politicians see me as a pesky Major annoyance who is a force to be reckoned with . . .and generally best appeased, if at all possible. And it's usually possible.

Like I've pointed out before, there are literally dozens of stories here on this very website where people put together persuasive, reasoned, well researched and polite presentations . . . only to lose when some idiot stands up and merely says "well I think Chickens stink."

Now if you can find a petition that led to a successful outcome, hey go for it. But if it doesn't fly . . . Might be time to try something a little different.

 

[Woodcutterron]

Quote:
Nice to see someone "gets it"

 

[confusedturtle]

I appologize for taking so long to reply. Along with our hopes to raise chickens, hubby and I are also doing some renovations to our home. It is raining today so we took the day off. Anyways, here is the law for raising chickens in Norfolk Virginia:
- Keeping of certain animals within the city.
Sec 6.1-7 Keeping of certain animals within the city
(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person to keep in any building or on any premises within the limits of the city any livestock or poultry without a permit issued by the director of public health. Such permit shall designate the location at which said animals shall be kept and the number of animals to be kept at said location.

(b)
It shall be unlawful for the owner or any person having charge or control of any livestock or poultry to permit said animals to be at large within the limits of the city.

(c)
The provisions of this section shall not apply to slaughterhouses lawfully operating within the city, authorized shows or exhibits, except regarding strays from the above-listed operations, licensed kennels, veterinarians, animal shelters or humane societies, licensed temporary exhibits, licensed pet shops or licensed/authorized training facilities. No other exceptions or exemptions to this section are authorized.

It was not the law that said I needed to write a convincing letter, I spoke with a ton of people on the phone and the last one was a guy who apparently has been contacted alot about this. He said that I need to write a letter to the director of Public Health Dept for the city requesting a permit to raise the chickens. He said that considering the turn the economy has taken he thinks that there is a possibilty of getting one. Since posting I have done more research and it seems like a lot of people around here feel the same way. My plan is get a signed letter from my neighbors stating that they would not care if I raise chickens. I plan to put info about the coop we want to build, the number of chickens we want to keep, the breed of chickens we choose, info about that breed (ie. their temperment & if they are vocal or not), benefits of raising chickens, what we plan to do with the poop, and that we are not planning to have any roosters. Thank yu to everyone who repsonded, I appreciate all of your ideas & tips. I will post a rough draft letter as soon as I come up with one. Thank you all so much

 

[Woodcutterron]

What concerns me is the comment about "considering the turn in the economy" which combined with other info you gave make it seem like the Health Department has been predisposed to turn down previous requests out-of-hand. And all Americans should have objections to such a policy.

I would ask for the Health departments written policy on the issuance of such permits. Something isn't ringing true there, and there is a chance they don't even have the authority to deny such a permit without just cause. Heck, they may not even have the authority to issue such a permit. Either way, it wouldn't hurt to ask them for the written policy, even if you plan to play along with the ridiculous mandate. Knowing that written policy could help you draft a better request.

If they can't supply you with written policy, that means they're essentially "making it up as they go along" and if that is the situation . . . that is a very real problem. How often is such a permit to be renewed? If it is a yearly renewal, what will the arbitrary policy of the next Bureaucrat responsible for making that decision be?

I would 'convince' them that they need to simply give me the permit because they had no valid cause not to. Every time we essentially 'beg' a government entity for something they actually have a duty to allow of us, we make it a little tougher on future generations to maintain the ability to pursue liberty as free Americans.

Sometimes, doing what is actually "right" doesn't always seem it, and sometimes doing something wrong feels like the right thing to do.
Politely asking a government entity for permission to do something they actually have a duty to allow falls into the latter category.

 

[chickortreat]

Just exactly where in the constitution does it give the health department, the mayor, the city council, or the bully down the street, for that matter, the "authority" to tell you that you can or cannot have chickens? Understand, I live in a rural setting, with no neighbors except my parents, on a dirt road, where often less than a dozen vehicles a day travel past our place. Therefore, the idea of having to "ask permission" to do anything is foreign to me. If I want to plant a tree in a certain spot, I plant it. If I want to cut a tree down, I cut it. I understand simple freedoms like these do not exist in some cities. What I don't understand is how America got to where she is now. I honestly believe if they passed a law against urinating more than twice a week, some folks would just swell up and pop. Had the founding fathers, as we call them, been like modern Americans, they would never have declared independence.....why that would be illegal. And they knew they wouldn't be facing a fine, they'd be facing a hangman's noose.

 

[Mamma_Duck04]

Ok, this thread came up in a search I just did after speaking with a gentleman in the City Council's planning committee. Norfolk's *city ordinances* don't allow chickens (or rabbits, etc etc.), but do allow one house-pig. BUT the health departments regulations state you CAN have them if you get a permit from the Health Dept. The Health Department's ruling came in 1999 vs. the city ordinance passed back in 1992. This gentleman is in the process of changing these so that they read the same, his preference is to make them match the newest (1999) Health Dept's version. (These conversations took place between 4/22-27/11)

Upon calling the Health Dept., I got ahold of a 'cheerful' little man with a complex who

, in no uncertain terms, insists it's impossible to get a permit from the Health Dept. chickens. Can't offer a reference to any written guidelines, etc. but insists lots of people have been calling and they just don't give permits. But, I try, the City says they're allowed if I can get a permit (wink wink). "But we don't issue permits for chickens, we never have and never will."

So... the question prods me, they say you can have them if you get a permit from them, yet verbally they insist they don't issue permits, which begs me to ask if this was a passive agreement to pacify certain parties back in '99 & be able to say they allow chickens, you just have to jump through these hoops, when in fact, they don't/won't actually issue permits (?). OR, if this issue would be resolved once this City Planning dude gets done aligning the City & Health Dept. written regulations...? Since they wouldn't be able to default to "City ordinance states you just can't have them." Know what I mean?

But it does bug me since this little-man-with-a-complex was so opinionated about it (or maybe just had a "I am man, you just woman" attitude, I can't quite tell), how the heck can you comply "legally" (per city) if they only state they issue permits on paper, but don't actually do so in reality. Makes the 'hidden chickens' option much more appealing, or at least until they all get their heads together & figure out how they plan to resolve all this.

So to the OP, I'm of the opinion now that I wouldn't try writing a letter yet, until you can find someone that's been granted a permit in the first place. Knowing the City workers that stalk the neighborhoods leaving 'Welcome to Norfolk' notes for all sorts of dinky errors but overlook gross errors, I would be less inclined to put myself out there just yet while there's still issues about how this topic is even handled, lest you get yourself in trouble & either have to re-home them or get fined for having the chickens on the radar.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[Mamma_Duck04]

Thought I would post this since I just came across it, it refers specifically to the 'permits'. I remember a few years ago, an article ran about the sentinel chickens used for mosquito monitoring, so that all makes sense. Not 'hard fact' but a heck of a lot better than complete blindness we seem to have with our city officials!

http://www.altdaily.com/features/food/backyard-chickens-now-youre-clucking.html