Self Blue (lav gene) shows up unexpectedly?

[Sonoran Silkies]

Bottom as in underside of the feather, closest to the skin.

 

[Pathfinders]

Right, got it. I left a message on his phone, he's likely working.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

The original information said "inside" and "outside" of the feather. I sort of assumed that meant as compared with the bird's spine (inside as in inwards toward the bird's center, outside as in outwards towards the bird's center), but it still was a tad confusing. Finally I asked.

 

[Kev]

Edited out- not sure what happened.. it posted when I wasn't even done nor clicked submit... shrug!

 

[Kev]

I'll say if there were any solid blue/black/splash, white or cuckoo birds around at all, it's more likely one of these were the parents.. it's merely the far simpler explanation.

One other idea is to breed any of those blue birds to a Cream- something. If any brown colored chicks grow up and do not show Cream(even if just one), this is another strong evidence that this bird is not out of the pairing. In other words it's pretty much impossible for a bird to acquire a new mutation and lose another at the same time. What colors did this pullet bred back to her father produce? List all of the colors- were some solid blacks/mostly blacks without the blue or were any obvious splashes(in either solid color or splashed Browns)?

One other thing also to try- breed any of the blues to a BBR, best if not related or even better, of a different breed. If they produce blues and blacks with those birds.. that would prove it is something dominant, and not recessive and that the blue coloring is probably due to blue, not lavender.

 

[Pathfinders]

Hi Kevin (et al),

Just talked to Jeff. The blue/lav pullet was definitely produced by the Cream Light Brown Hen bred to the Blue Cream Light Brown cock (they were actually pullet and cockerel at the time.)

Jeff has Brahmas in Buff and Dark, he has Light Brown Leghorns, and he has Dutch. And the Dutch have been securely penned all along. No way something jumped the fence, really.

The pullet bred back to her father produced the blue chicks shown on page one of this thread. In the brooder was also a BCLB chick, but I don't know who produced it (Jeff, would you please like to wade in on this thread, as I know you're reading it now!)

Jeff's working on taking pictures of the shafting now, when I get them I'll upload them here.

Thanks all.

 

[Kev]

That brings up another question- how many chicks produced total? Also list all colors. I know there are pictures but what I(we?) don't know and am curious about is if the chicks pictured are the only ones produced along that one BLCB chick.. or other chicks in other colors were produced also but are being omitted in the discussion. Also be sure to observe if any chicks fail to show Cream..

Never was any black/blue/splash, white or barred birds on the same property as the dutch?

It would be interesting to see the results of one of those Blues bred with one of his Light Brown Leghorns as that's a wild type color. Genes are considered dominant/recessive ?? based on a cross with wild type. If it expresses in (test color/trait/gene) x wild type then it is a dominant. If it fails to show up in the cross, it's a recessive.

IF it fails to show up in the LBL cross.. with all chicks(at least 10) looking like normal Light Browns.. that will be very interesting.. and be especially interesting if the cross siblings were mated to each other and produce birds like these then it's pretty good solid proof that it is something recessive and unusual for sure.

However. If the LBL x blue birds produce black or blue/mostly black or blue offspring along light browns then either it's a new black and dominant mutant OR a bird with black somehow had access to the dutch.

Let me offer apologies if skepticism comes across in my posts. I've had the experience of several 'its impossible' while the chicks prove otherwise. One actual example: person had two breeds. One buff, pea combed and feather legged.. the other barred, single combed and clean legged. Claims they were penned separately(but in adjoining pens) for something like 3 months before hens started laying and eggs set for hatching. Some of the chicks from "barred pen" grew up with a lot of buff color bleeding through, had leg feathering and PEA combs. Yet person is absolutely confident that these are throwbacks, new mutants, anything but crosses with the "buff birds". Becomes defensive and upset about it too.. This is an extreme example yes.. it is cases like this that come up around occasionally that makes it "better be a little skeptical at first.."

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

FWIW, if I correctly remember the canary breeding that Strauss did on Alcatraz, the red factor (gene? allele?) was introduced by breeding through the wire. I can't imagine how a non-flighted large (relatively) bird could do so, but there is a saying of "where there's a will there's a way." I cedrtainly see many of my roosters trying to get through cage wire to birds on the other side, although it is usually roosters sparring, not amorous rondeveoux.

 

[Kev]

That's the Birdman of Alcatraz right?

I've seen chickens and peafowl with both willing partners trying to mate with another through the wire and all have failed. Seems rather hard to believe its possible for chickens, canaries.. seems far more likely. They can cling to the wire pretty well and so I suppose a male could successfully breed with a female that is also clinging to the wire on the other side.

The other idea is maybe some sperm are able to last for very long periods of time. In turkeys it apparently can last in the hens for 3 months or more. I've talked with a turkey hobbyist breeder that had spring time results which were possible only if the hen still had sperm from the tom she bred with in the previous fall. I only did a fertility test once- with a Polish hen that was isolated in a pen by herself and had a rooster in with her for a day, then collected eggs for 3 weeks afterwards. Only one egg was infertile and was not sure if that egg was from the first egg after introduction of rooster or if her fertility was starting to run out. Didn't mark egg laid dates on them. Got bored with the experiment and didn't try to set any more after that. But that seemed like a pretty good lasting fertility rate, no? I did think of this possibility re: person who separated his buffs and barreds for 3 months..

 

[Krys109uk]

A partridge Orp male I liked got killed so I kept the hens locked up & kept collecting the eggs. I was getting fertile eggs for about 3 weeks.

Talking of 'impossible outcomes'. Back in UK I crossed two totally different types of Marans, the male, from France, a copper black heavily feathered legs everything as one would expect for copper blacks, crossed with British type cuckoo hens. The plumage colour of the offspring was sex linked, as one would expect; all chicks had feathered legs like the male. The weirdest thing, three of the pullet offspring had bizarre combs, very small with three rows. Sort of like some pea combs but flatter. The parents were in a row of pens which were totally enclosed, including overhead. The only pea combed birds were British type araucanas about 14 pens away (their pea combs were not like the strange offspring) All of the offspring from the mating had well feathered legs & all of the pullets went on to lay very dark brown eggs.