Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[TropicalChickies]

Complicated, hope things turn out right.

I don’t know if Shad or anyone else reacted. But do you know that hens take a while to lay again after a broody period? And in general, roos are not interested in hens that don’t lay?

I have trouble with braking my broody Katrientje too. Never had such persistent Dutch bantams. Katrientje is a bantam Rhode Island Red (RIR).

I think everyone is fine, they're just being chickens. I tend to view their antics as a combination of cosmic joke and mild revenge on their "keepers" like me who fuss and fret over them.

I'm glad you asked about the broodies taking their sweet time going back to lay. Of course the mama hens don't lay while they are mothering their chicks. Eight weeks seems to be the norm here for the mommy switch to flip off and they return to laying. They all go through a short molt for about three weeks to renew themselves after brooding as well. Right after the molt, I see a vibrant red flush in their faces and combs and eggs soon follow.

But regarding the times when hens have sat without hatching chicks -- or I've managed to snap them out of it -- not one of them has gone back to laying until the full 21 days has elapsed PLUS about 8 - 10 days on top of it.

So, every time a hen goes broody here, I know I'm not getting eggs for about a month from that hen.

Now, this part may be of interest to others, especially @Shadrach (whom I recall mentioning that no matter how raggedy his Ex-Batts were upon arrival, they laid eggs, every or almost every day. This characteristic of taking a long time to return to laying after going broody is more specific to the hens and pullets I have now (Tina, Patucha, Rusty and Dusty). They all came from a neighbor whom I trust to raise reasonably healthy young chickens. They all are hatched by broody hens, not incubated. Because this neighbor is raising chickens to sell for income, she actually selects to keep the pullets who go broody and commit to sitting early! (The exact opposite of what people who just want eggs do!). She's been doing this for decades, so the way I see it, most likely all of the pullets she raises will have a "broody gene."

This is a stark contrast to my original lot of hens whom I bought from another fellow. I've mentioned in other posts how sickly and unkempt they were, and they all died between 2.5 and 4 years of age. Of the six original hens, only one ever went broody. None of the others did. And even though they came with health problems, they laid eggs. All the time. More than we could eat.

I actually find this really sad. I'm quite glad to have this group with tendencies more natural to hens -- even it means fewer eggs in the short term, I believe it will even out over the long term. And now that I have a rooster and fertile eggs, I can let that continue in the generations hatched here.

I'm very curious to see if these hens who brood more and lay less will live longer and healthier lives. I do plan to snap them out of brooding at appropriate times -- like the height of the rainy season when hatching and raising chicks would be very stressful for me and the mum. And I control how many eggs they sit on, no more than 3 or 4 at a time. I don't want more chickens than I can feed and shelter. (I used to say 12, now that I have 11, I say 15, haha).

But, long-winded answer wrapped up, yes, my hens take their time going back to laying after brooding, even if they don't brood the whole period. And, voluntary comment, I see that as a good thing for their health overall.

Cuteness tax. Little brothers preening each other.

 

[TropicalChickies]

Weird occurrence at bed time . I was putting the pups in the kennel and heard a commotion in the bantam coop next to the garage. This is Chinito's tribe. He is the frizzle bantam rooster. A different rooster and hen were putting a beat down on a third rooster. He was on the ground in the corner. They were pecking his head and neck strongly. I broke it up and brought him in our house. Not a bunch of blood but he was definitely punch drunk. Let him calm down tonight and do a thorough check tomorrow. He must have crossed the wrong bird but usually this group is very relaxed with no fighting.

Geez, I hope he's ok.

@GregnLety I've been meaning to ask you, since I know you keep multiple roosters and tribes. I've got at least two 8 week old cockerels here, plus Lucio who's now about nine months. There's enough space here to accommodate more than one or even two tribes here and I'm keen to foster that type of arrangement along. I'm working on some new coop and satellite roosting areas now. Got any tips or experiences that come to mind? Like, for example, if I see one of the cockerels getting picked on more than the others, should I move him to another coop or just provide the area and see if he goes there himself?

There's a couple outliers in my tribe that I could see being happier establishing their own tribe. But what I see and what they want could be very different.... When a tribe splits off from the original one, what does that look like for you? (I do recall Shadrach's story of Rip and Notch from his article, I'm just looking for more examples). Thanks.

Little Toby here (formerly Stripe) seems to be looking for a new house. He's very sweet and moves a little slower than the other chicks (he got his Mama's short legs) and the hens peck him harshly. He'd be my first candidate to start a new tribe, but I guess I should leave it up to him... Or?

 

[Iluveggers]

All this talk about broody mamas…. I am still very impressed with my Marans, who are not known to be broody but has done an excellent job during her third try. I put up some chicken wire at the bottom two feet of their enclosed ranging area, since I thought the babies would be able to get through the welded wire. At first the babies stuck right next to mom, and would panic chirp if she got too far away. Now I see them starting to venture away a bit, and have seen the rest of the flock “gently” peck one on occasion if they try to take their food or get too close. Mama was fiercely protective for the first week, and now seems content to let the littles learn who is in charge. Lol. My favorite part is when they take a break and the chicks huddle under mom in the grass, or watching them toddle behind her up the ramp. (It only took them 3 days to figure the ramp out, chasing baby chicks in a 2ft high area under the coop is not fun!) The first day only the blonde chick followed mom to bed, the second day 2 made it, and day 3 I no longer had to catch one who got left behind. Very curious to see how long mama cares for them. They are a little over 2 weeks old now. Will get some pics for tax later, when I go out to bring some vegetable scrap treats.

 

[Shadrach]

I think everyone is fine, they're just being chickens. I tend to view their antics as a combination of cosmic joke and mild revenge on their "keepers" like me who fuss and fret over them.

I'm glad you asked about the broodies taking their sweet time going back to lay. Of course the mama hens don't lay while they are mothering their chicks. Eight weeks seems to be the norm here for the mommy switch to flip off and they return to laying. They all go through a short molt for about three weeks to renew themselves after brooding as well. Right after the molt, I see a vibrant red flush in their faces and combs and eggs soon follow.

But regarding the times when hens have sat without hatching chicks -- or I've managed to snap them out of it -- not one of them has gone back to laying until the full 21 days has elapsed PLUS about 8 - 10 days on top of it.

So, every time a hen goes broody here, I know I'm not getting eggs for about a month from that hen.

Now, this part may be of interest to others, especially @Shadrach (whom I recall mentioning that no matter how raggedy his Ex-Batts were upon arrival, they laid eggs, every or almost every day. This characteristic of taking a long time to return to laying after going broody is more specific to the hens and pullets I have now (Tina, Patucha, Rusty and Dusty). They all came from a neighbor whom I trust to raise reasonably healthy young chickens. They all are hatched by broody hens, not incubated. Because this neighbor is raising chickens to sell for income, she actually selects to keep the pullets who go broody and commit to sitting early! (The exact opposite of what people who just want eggs do!). She's been doing this for decades, so the way I see it, most likely all of the pullets she raises will have a "broody gene."

This is a stark contrast to my original lot of hens whom I bought from another fellow. I've mentioned in other posts how sickly and unkempt they were, and they all died between 2.5 and 4 years of age. Of the six original hens, only one ever went broody. None of the others did. And even though they came with health problems, they laid eggs. All the time. More than we could eat.

I actually find this really sad. I'm quite glad to have this group with tendencies more natural to hens -- even it means fewer eggs in the short term, I believe it will even out over the long term. And now that I have a rooster and fertile eggs, I can let that continue in the generations hatched here.

I'm very curious to see if these hens who brood more and lay less will live longer and healthier lives. I do plan to snap them out of brooding at appropriate times -- like the height of the rainy season when hatching and raising chicks would be very stressful for me and the mum. And I control how many eggs they sit on, no more than 3 or 4 at a time. I don't want more chickens than I can feed and shelter. (I used to say 12, now that I have 11, I say 15, haha).

But, long-winded answer wrapped up, yes, my hens take their time going back to laying after brooding, even if they don't brood the whole period. And, voluntary comment, I see that as a good thing for their health overall.

Cuteness tax. Little brothers preening each other.

View attachment 3566561

A bit of biology.
A hens ovary is fully formed formed at birth. It looks a bit like a cauliflower with small nodules. Each one of those nodules is a potential egg. The hen doesn't make more nodules as she ages. The quantity of the nodules is the hens egg laying limit.
High production breeds don't necessarily have more of these nodules. What makes these hens high production is the rate at which they ovulate. A jungle fowl hen may ovulate 20 times in a year. A high production breed may ovulate 320 times a year. What has happened to make high production hens is their rate of ovulation has been increased; it's not that they have more potential egg nodules.
You, we, have a choice. We can make a hen lay her egg capacity in a short or longer period of time. It's the rate of ovulation and all the nurtritional complications involved that wear the high production breeds out; not their overall egg laying capacity.
Taking 800 to 900 eggs as a life capacity of a hen, you can have 300 eggs a year for a couple of years with a decline from then on, or you can have 100 eggs a year over a longer period of time.
It's the rate of lay that wears the high production breeds out, not their egg capacity. This is why the commercial egg industry descibe their hens as spent hens after 18 months or so. They laid the majority of eggs they've got in them in a very short period of time.
Hens that lay fewer eggs a year don't wear out as quickly. It's a bit like burning a candle at both ends; it lasts half as long.

 

[Iluveggers]

A bit of biology.
A hens ovary is fully formed formed at birth. It looks a bit like a cauliflower with small nodules. Each one of those nodules is a potential egg. The hen doesn't make more nodules as she ages. The quantity of the nodules is the hens egg laying limit.
High production breeds don't necessarily have more of these nodules. What makes these hens high production is the rate at which they ovulate. A jungle fowl hen may ovulate 20 times in a year. A high production breed may ovulate 320 times a year. What has happened to make high production hens is their rate of ovulation has been increased; it's not that they have more potential egg nodules.
You, we, have a choice. We can make a hen lay her egg capacity in a short or longer period of time. It's the rate of ovulation and all the nurtritional complications involved that wear the high production breeds out; not their overall egg laying capacity.
Taking 800 to 900 eggs as a life capacity of a hen, you can have 300 eggs a year for a couple of years with a decline from then on, or you can have 100 eggs a year over a longer period of time.
It's the rate of lay that wears the high production breeds out, not their egg capacity. This is why the commercial egg industry descibe their hens as spent hens after 18 months or so. They laid the majority of eggs they've got in them in a very short period of time.
Hens that lay fewer eggs a year don't wear out as quickly. It's a bit like burning a candle at both ends; it lasts half as long.

Do you know if any research has been done on how many eggs each breed has in their ovaries? I wonder if jungle fowl start out with less eggs as well, and something like an Orloff might have a few more, but Barred Rocks and ISA browns coild both have close to equal number, just Rocks spread out over a long period of time?

 

[TropicalChickies]

A bit of biology.
A hens ovary is fully formed formed at birth. It looks a bit like a cauliflower with small nodules. Each one of those nodules is a potential egg. The hen doesn't make more nodules as she ages. The quantity of the nodules is the hens egg laying limit.
High production breeds don't necessarily have more of these nodules. What makes these hens high production is the rate at which they ovulate. A jungle fowl hen may ovulate 20 times in a year. A high production breed may ovulate 320 times a year. What has happened to make high production hens is their rate of ovulation has been increased; it's not that they have more potential egg nodules.
You, we, have a choice. We can make a hen lay her egg capacity in a short or longer period of time. It's the rate of ovulation and all the nurtritional complications involved that wear the high production breeds out; not their overall egg laying capacity.
Taking 800 to 900 eggs as a life capacity of a hen, you can have 300 eggs a year for a couple of years with a decline from then on, or you can have 100 eggs a year over a longer period of time.
It's the rate of lay that wears the high production breeds out, not their egg capacity. This is why the commercial egg industry descibe their hens as spent hens after 18 months or so. They laid the majority of eggs they've got in them in a very short period of time.
Hens that lay fewer eggs a year don't wear out as quickly. It's a bit like burning a candle at both ends; it lasts half as long.

Thank you. Very very interesting, especially the anatomy part. But, if I may pursue the point, how do "we, you, choose" to make a hen lay less or more over a longer or shorter period of time?
Diet?
Confinement?
Breeding out brooding traits?
All of the above?

Do you think it's possible to select FOR broody characteristics over time, as I believe my neighbor has done?

I'll add that I didn't do anything to either of my groups to make them lay more or less. They both free ranged, had a coop they only used to sleep, and were fed similar diets until I recently switched to home made feed. But the switch is very recent, not quite a month, and I've observed the lower rate of lay and more broodiness in this group for much longer, over a year.

 

[Shadrach]

Do you know if any research has been done on how many eggs each breed has in their ovaries? I wonder if jungle fowl start out with less eggs as well, and something like an Orloff might have a few more, but Barred Rocks and ISA browns coild both have close to equal number, just Rocks spread out over a long period of time?

I know it has and it's not easy information to come by. The exact messing about that has been done to the high production breeds is a very closely guarded secret.

 

[Shadrach]

Thank you. Very very interesting, especially the anatomy part. But, if I may pursue the point, how do "we, you, choose" to make a hen lay less or more over a longer or shorter period of time?
Diet?
Confinement?
Breeding out brooding traits?
All of the above?

Do you think it's possible to select FOR broody characteristics over time, as I believe my neighbor has done?

I'll add that I didn't do anything to either of my groups to make them lay more or less. They both free ranged, had a coop they only used to sleep, and were fed similar diets until I recently switched to home made feed. But the switch is very recent, not quite a month, and I've observed the lower rate of lay and more broodiness in this group for much longer, over a year.

Yes it is possible to select for broodiness. A few breeders interested in land race breeds do exactly this.
What I used to do and will do should I care for broody hens in the future is when they go broody I let them sit for around three days. This switches their egg laying cycle off. The more broody hens might go broody two or three times a year. Say it takes two weeks for their egg laying cycle to switch back on. That may give them a six week break from laying at the height of their laying season.
Does it actually work to extend their life? I don't know and I doubt anyone else does either. One would need to let quite a few generations of managed broodies live to full life span which may be 10 to 12 years. 5 generations of that is a 50 year study.

 

[Shadrach]

As in all these behaviour/biology matters, there are always exceptions. What one hopes to avoid is people clinging to the exceptions to make it the rule.
For high production breeds one also has to consider all the other biological functions that are involved in staying alive and producing eggs. High production breeds eat more and that puts some strain on their digestive system for example. Their are many factors involved. Does laying an egg every day have mental health consequences? If a human female had a baby every year from puberty to menopause how do you think that might effect her? I can imagine a lot of consequences that may impact on her health both physical and mental.

 

[GregnLety]

Geez, I hope he's ok.

@GregnLety I've been meaning to ask you, since I know you keep multiple roosters and tribes. I've got at least two 8 week old cockerels here, plus Lucio who's now about nine months. There's enough space here to accommodate more than one or even two tribes here and I'm keen to foster that type of arrangement along. I'm working on some new coop and satellite roosting areas now. Got any tips or experiences that come to mind? Like, for example, if I see one of the cockerels getting picked on more than the others, should I move him to another coop or just provide the area and see if he goes there himself?

There's a couple outliers in my tribe that I could see being happier establishing their own tribe. But what I see and what they want could be very different.... When a tribe splits off from the original one, what does that look like for you? (I do recall Shadrach's story of Rip and Notch from his article, I'm just looking for more examples). Thanks.

View attachment 3566564
Little Toby here (formerly Stripe) seems to be looking for a new house. He's very sweet and moves a little slower than the other chicks (he got his Mama's short legs) and the hens peck him harshly. He'd be my first candidate to start a new tribe, but I guess I should leave it up to him... Or?

Most of our different tribes originally started as chicks that grew up together. Viajito, our Silky rooster was acquired from a friend of mine. He was lowest in the pecking order and was constantly harassed. We tried forcing hens to join him but they'd run back to their established tribes first chance that arose. We finally put two young pullets with him and they clicked. The girls pick their rooster and if they already made that choice it's hard to get them to change roosters. Thanks to that combination we have Silky/BR offspring and Silky/BO offspring and they are beautiful birds. The Rooster from last night is ok but instead of putting him back with his tribe my wife is rehoming him. There's still 3 roosters and 4 hens in that group I believe. Probably too much testosterone for one tribe. 2 roosters per tribe is a good thing.