Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[Shadrach]

The trouble with me going looking for pictures is I tend to find a lot.
These are the coops for Tribe 2 and Tribe 3 and at one point Tribe 4.
Tribe 2, furthest away. Tribe 4 in the yellow coop for a while. Tribe 5 in the blue coop for a while. The half dismantled coop on the right of the picture housed Tribe 3 for a while.

This is a Tribe 3 coop, later to be used as a broody coop. The yellow coop is one of the broody coops.

Of course one has to include my house.

The next two pictures are of Tribe 2 broodies under their coop. In the second picture you can just see Notch, the rooster of Tribe 3.

A broody coop outside my house.

ythe coop Tribe 2 were in when I arrived in more or less the same place as their replacement coop.

Temporary set up for Rip after he fell out with his brother Notch. He roosted in a tree outside my house for a while. I moved him to this coop.

Tribe 2 coop again.

Tribe 3 coop again.

Mini Minx with chicks in the old Tribe 2 coop.

Ruffles and chicks in the broody coop.

The magnolia tree tribe 2 and earlier Tribe 5 liked to roost in.

This is the emergency coop I built for Cillin when his son threw him out.
This was in the sheep field above my house.

Blackthorn.

This is Tribe 1 coop. This and Cillin's emergency coop were on the other side of the main house above mine so the only coops that were seperate from the location of the others.

So, no, I didn't space the coops out in order to promote a tribal structure. It didn't seem to matter where the coops were, except at roost time when Mag from Tribe 2 insisted on going for Notch from Tribe 3 at roost time.
Tribe 4 for it's short and changeable life used the Yellow coop in the first picture. The resues, there were a few didn't integrate with any of the Tribes and spent their days apart from any of the others.

 

[Shadrach]

I don't have any pictures of the farm I worked on near Little Chalfont in Hertfordshire. Definitely not tribal there. 500 plus chickens. My job was the broodies and roosters.

 

[Perris]

Yes.

Four groups.

So what I would like to understand is the mechanics of a young male leaving home, so to speak (and which you claim is normal, natural behaviour, but I have not seen with mine). And what such cockerels' options were (the coops in Catalonia are of more relevance than those on your uncle's farm, since the rest of the discussion has been about them has it not?) - where would they have roosted had you not built them coops? Did your provision and locating of a coop for them not impose a sort of circumstance on them (as per #34,407), and in a sense define their territories and create a new group?

And, turning from cockerels to adults, when you had the 4 adults in the Marans group simultaneously (assuming it was a stable group), what do you think was different there such that one or two or three had not left to set up their own new groups when they were cockerels?

Your use of the word tribes and tribal behaviour is still problematic; you can't just dismiss the difficulties with a wave of the hand/ keyboard. @RoyalChick put it better than I can:

But I thought your main reason for wanting to use the word tribe is to shake up what other people think when they hear the word flock in order to have them think differently about chicken welfare.
That means knowing how others react to the two words (versus how you react to them) should matter.
Personally I attach very few connotations to the word flock. To me it is a word used to describe a group often but not always of birds. It also doesn’t (for me) imply anything about social interactions or living conditions.

edited to add this was posted before I saw your explanation of the Catalonia coops. The pictures help a lot, but you often talked about your 'tribes' having different territories and crossing each other's territories so perhaps you would be kind enough to unpack all that too.

 

[Perris]

I've read that study several times and feel that, while very useful, it sadly lacks a lot of context that would help us make more informed deductions.

that is an inevitable consequence of doing field work with fowl living naturally. What you get with identical chickens in a lab setting is complete, and completely different data.

 

[Perris]

I've read that study several times and feel that, while very useful, it sadly lacks a lot of context that would help us make more informed deductions. How many of those flocks were actually several tribes that were together incidentally due to resource availability? The flock of 20 was observed in winter, which is the dry season for most places in southeast Asia. Were they actually just congregating around a source of fresh water or another rare resource? Do domestic "flocks" only stay in the same space because that's where the food is? I wonder if chickens' social behavior changes based on distribution of resources, including but not limited to shelter, water, and food. Feral cats are usually solitary, but will form colonies around stable sources of food (like well-meaning people feeding them). I could easily see both the "flock" and "tribe" configuration being equally "natural," just existing within different contexts.

Have you got access to M Sullivan Flock Structure in Red Junglefowl 1991?
https://doi.org/10.1016/0168-1591(91)90143-L

Here's the abstract: "The associations between individuals in a free-living population of red junglefowl are visualised in a cluster analysis. The flock structure is shown for the population when females are with and without chicks, and the differences described. Various kinds of groupings are present, from solitary individuals to mixed-sex flocks. The strongest associations maintaining flock cohesion are shown to be female-female pairings and it is these which break down when the females produce their chicks."

 

[Shadrach]

One problem here is trying to explain ten years worth of changes.
A lot of what you are interested in is written on By Bob's thread and others, plus more in my stories. I would be writing for weeks to trace every event and lay out the circumstances under which the changes took place. It's a pointless task because your chickens haven't behaved in the same manner. Not many backyard chickens do.
I do have some possible explanations as to why yours don't but I would need to spend a great deal of time observing your chicken to come up with a satisfactory answer.

So what I would like to understand is the mechanics of a young male leaving home, so to speak (and which you claim is normal, natural behaviour, but I have not seen with mine)

Space is a major factor. There are no mechanics as such. Each situation has been different. Your rooster Chirk and the other rooster whose name I forget that died as a result of injuries from fighting would suggest that your flock is feeling the pressure of trying to keep the number of males you have.
Where in your keeping environment would a new group establish a territory that isn't already claimed by the main group?

Your use of the word tribes and tribal behaviour is still problematic; you can't just dismiss the difficulties with a wave of the hand/ keyboard. @RoyalChick put it better than I can:

I fail to see the problem here.
The various studies you've linked to show distinct groups in a measured area. as do all the other studies I've read on wild jungle fowl. The composition of the groups and the longevity of such arrangements is often not documented; the observer counts chickens for a few weeks. They don't give details of what happens over time measured in years usually. A group may have say 4 hens, a senior rooster and six juveniles. There's a median sized group at the time of observation.
The larger groups may be more than one tribe foraging together. Without all the fine details over time it's very difficult to assess what is happening.
Despite the above it's quite apparent that within a fairly small range (I often see an acre to an acre and a half per group mentioned) there are distinct groups.

When cockerels have left home, if they left, or were driven out they headed for the trees. I had a few up trees at various times. Others moved in with me for a while. A few wandered off never to be seen again; no sign they had been predated.
One cockerel made his way down to the next farm where they have free ranging chickens. Another moved across the valley to join five hens one of the local shepherds kept.
The bantams fared best at multiple males in a tribe. There were three adult males and a juvenile at one point. The juvenile got predated.
Some we ate. Some died.

And, turning from cockerels to adults, when you had the 4 adults in the Marans group simultaneously (assuming it was a stable group), what do you think was different there such that one or two or three had not left to set up their own new groups when they were cockerels?

They did. George it seems left of his own accord. I have no idea what happened to him. Again, no signs that he has been predated.
Major gave up tending Tribe 1's hens at some point and handed that duty over to Oswald. The fourth male Random died protecting Mini Minx and her chicks.
Most of Tribe 3's juvenile males I gave away or ate. I had to limit the population growth.

 

[Vulpes vulpes]

Have you got access to M Sullivan Flock Structure in Red Junglefowl 1991?
https://doi.org/10.1016/0168-1591(91)90143-L

Here's the abstract: "The associations between individuals in a free-living population of red junglefowl are visualised in a cluster analysis. The flock structure is shown for the population when females are with and without chicks, and the differences described. Various kinds of groupings are present, from solitary individuals to mixed-sex flocks. The strongest associations maintaining flock cohesion are shown to be female-female pairings and it is these which break down when the females produce their chicks."

I'm only a couple pages in, but it appears to be a great trove of information, thank you!

 

[Shadrach]

Back to the present.
Wet and windy. Occasional 35mph gusts. A lot warmer at 10C.
They were waiting for me at the gate.
They didn't show any interest in going on to the field but they didn't go back under the coop.

 

[Perris]

Your rooster Chirk and the other rooster whose name I forget that died as a result of injuries from fighting

They didn't die from injuries. Chirk lost his dominance in a brief fight because he got sick, and was essentially paralyzed by disease and nursed through it for a month or so in the utility room. When he recovered from whatever it was, he lived on in protective custody for almost a year till I euthanized him, because even Maria stopped visiting him, and I thought that was no way to live. His dad Sven lived for a year or so on the fringe of the flock after recovering from horrific injuries in a fox attack, and then wandered off up the lane, never to be seen again, much as you describe some of your disappearing.

the pressure of trying to keep the number of males you have

actually I think I am seeing what I have read about, to wit, that there is less fighting when there are more males. There are lots of possible explanations of course, including that I just knew less about chickens when I had fewer of them, and in particular just 1 or 2 roos, and I also had less experience, so depended more on what I read in BYC to interpret what I thought I saw. And memory can play tricks.

In any case, it seems to me that there is less sparring and more chasing with 11 roos than there was with 2 or 3 or even 4. And that the hierarchy is more flattened and fluid - it went through multiple undulations during the last moult. That was an education, once I opened my eyes to it. First I saw Killay being chased by Hensol and thought a coup was in progress, and then realized that most of the senior roos were not themselves and it twigged that they were going into moult. Through most of the winter they've all done some chasing and being chased as they felt more or less stronger than the other and some apparently relished the opportunity and seized the moment to get their own back for some past perceived injustice. I notice Killay has been nicer to everyone since. There have been no real fights. If there is a hierarchy, who's where in it is not at all clear to me, except that last year's cohort get out of the way for their elders, usually, though it can resemble boys in a playground staying just out of reach of each other's jabs. If they were horses they'd get top marks for shoulder-in at dressage They are outstanding at the half-pass too

Where in your keeping environment would a new group establish a territory that isn't already claimed by the main group?

wherever the local pheasants do would suit them I imagine. They are unbounded. They can go wherever they want to.

Without all the fine details over time it's very difficult to assess what is happening.

Absolutely. Every broody, hatch and death (of adults; I don't think the death of a chick causes even a ripple of grief, except to an exceptional broody) changes the dynamic.

 

[Perris]

I fail to see the problem

Communication is confounded when we use terms that mean different things to different people. The more baggage a term has, the more alternative readings it carries simultaneously. That leads to confusion not clarity.