Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[Mother of Chaos]

One version of play-fighting, perhaps:

 

[kattabelly]

It's got nothing to do with machismo.
One of the problems I have with BYC is the presentation of chickens as cute, cuddly, friendly pets. They're not and if people accepted this at the outset of their chicken keeping then we would get fewer posts like,
"my rooster (they're usually cockerels) attacked me."
or
"my hens are fighting what have I done wrong."

All I'm asking is for people to be careful of their use of adverbs in particular, have knowledge of the dictionary definition of the words they use in mind because that is what most of us will understand the word to mean and be honest in their reporting.

There is a lot of useful information on this thread and I really don't want people reading the posts that are not honest portrayals of their chickens behaviour and leaving feeling inadequate because their chickens are not the angels a misleading post may suggest.

I had all this with the youngest and eldest at school. One or the other would come home upset because another child had been bullying them. Confronting the parents of said child usually led to "my child would never do anything like that."
Same with aggressive dogs trying to rip pieces out ones trousers, "oh he's harmless really, just playing" as one mops the blood up.

I wont be taking prisoners on this topic.

Interesting, a good explanation and I see what you're saying.

I do think that this can work both ways, though. There's also a difference between some of the behaviours you would call fighting, that I'd probably describe as squabbles or disagreements or someone getting telt, and the kind of fighting that ends in or aims for (more than very minor) bloodshed and injuries. For example, I can think of a few threads where people were really stressing about their birds fighting, or bullying or integration issues, when the actual behaviours they described - and in some cases even posted videos of - didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary or a cause for concern, to most of us.

Similarly with cockerel and rooster behaviour - just in the last few weeks, I've been bitten (first time moving the LS boy on the roost to make space for the chicks - he's been fine since); charged (went to collect eggs at a time I didn't expect anyone to still be laying - he came running around the corner at her alarm call but stopped just short once he saw it was me); bitten again (thought the spot where I'd patched a hole in my gloves might be edible); probably other things I've already forgotten... If I thought any of those were them "fighting" me I'd probably be posting a panicked thread on here and getting told to kill the bird responsible immediately.

The boys have spats and (so far only minor) fights between themselves too but also a lot of interactions that are part of the same "conversation" but might only consist of a look, or step, or peck. Again, I think it's important to be aware of the potential for that to turn into something more serious but I don't think it's helpful to lump all those behaviours in with the kind of fighting that says two birds really can't live together.

 

[Mother of Chaos]

I see this more broadly as synonymous with parenting styles. Helicopter parents possibly equivalent to helicopter chickeners?

I was born in 1954. By the time I was in upper elementary grades, we lived in a Virginia subdivision in the DC suburbs, where most men (this was the mid-60’s, when middle-class white women were stay-at-home moms) were military or worked otherwise for the federal government. We kids were privileged versions of feral kids: got off the school bus, threw down our books, changed clothes, and vanished until dinner. There were three house floorplans in the subdivision (six if you count mirror images), and we kids knocked on strangers’ doors to ask to borrow their bathrooms and knew where they were, and no one blinked an eye. I once fell off a bike racing downhill on Boundbrook Lane and knocked myself unconscious. A total stranger scraped me up, figured who I was, and called my mom.

So we were very lightly parented and had a lot of autonomy with our free time. If we were going to play kickball or softball, we just did it - no adult-organized teams or supervision. (We actually spent much of our free time illicitly exploring houses under construction and messing around in Little Hunting Creek.)

Anyway, I carried a lot of this approach to raising my three kids, while periodically wondering as I took them to doctor’s appointments if their multiple bruises and bumps would lead to suspicions of child abuse (they didn’t.)

But many younger posters here grew up under much more anxious parenting, and maybe that is being carried over to their chickening, in an OMG kind of way.

Sorry for the tl;dr. Don’t know why I’m so chatty today, other than recovering from jet lag and getting back to classes.

 

[notabitail]

It's got nothing to do with machismo.
One of the problems I have with BYC is the presentation of chickens as cute, cuddly, friendly pets. They're not and if people accepted this at the outset of their chicken keeping then we would get fewer posts like,
"my rooster (they're usually cockerels) attacked me."
or
"my hens are fighting what have I done wrong."

When we got our chicks a few years ago we thought they were all super cute, and they were going to be cuddly friendly pets that would be trainable. Bought the breeds because of what the factory said they'd be, and even bought a tiny pre-fab coop (which raised red flags in my head).

Of course they were not all "friendly" or "calm" or whatever the website said. Josephine was touted as being "active and flighty", and was the only one who lived up to that description. They didn't all get along, and most of them hated people picking them up.

Eventually we moved when they were bigger and after seeing them run back and forth in the pre-fab from my "office" too much to stand it they got let out most of the time I was there. I ended up reading BY Bob's thread, and as a results Shad's posts on them and eventually figured out how they actually worked. Once that changed they were easier to handle than I ever thought and actually became friendlier on their own terms, usually food. In fact, to this day Felicitas is the one hen who will usually come up to me when I'm sitting. She expects me to hand-feed her "scratch grain" and will get mad if I don't. I take special care of her since I do believe she's got a defect that causes her to have issues when she starts laying eggs (she's always been at an odd angle, and is long, despite being quite light).

I do wish I had a rooster for them, as the unfortunate side effect of caring for them all day led them to believe I was a rooster. Josephine the Leghorn didn't like going inside, but every night she'd come inside instead of going to the coop, and I'd have to carry that bird out every single night . The others would come inside if food was to be had, or if it was hot during the day. Biggest problem with that was the poop.

I know for a fact they appreciated having that free-range time all the time. It makes me mad when I see someone keeping a single hen in a tiny dollhouse-sized coop that it barely fits in. The closest thing I've seen to a better setup out here was the house I saw on my bike ride with the chickens roaming around across the street from their coop. I don't think them crossing the street was great but at least they weren't stuck in a tiny flimsy wooden structure.

 

[notabitail]

When we got our chicks a few years ago we thought they were all super cute, and they were going to be cuddly friendly pets that would be trainable. Bought the breeds because of what the factory said they'd be, and even bought a tiny pre-fab coop (which raised red flags in my head).

Of course they were not all "friendly" or "calm" or whatever the website said. Josephine was touted as being "active and flighty", and was the only one who lived up to that description. They didn't all get along, and most of them hated people picking them up.

Eventually we moved when they were bigger and after seeing them run back and forth in the pre-fab from my "office" too much to stand it they got let out most of the time I was there. I ended up reading BY Bob's thread, and as a results Shad's posts on them and eventually figured out how they actually worked. Once that changed they were easier to handle than I ever thought and actually became friendlier on their own terms, usually food.

I do wish I had a rooster for them, as the unfortunate side effect of caring for them all day led them to believe I was a rooster. Josephine the Leghorn didn't like going inside, but every night she'd come inside instead of going to the coop, and I'd have to carry that bird out every single night . The others would come inside if food was to be had, or if it was hot during the day. Biggest problem with that was the poop.

I know for a fact they appreciated having that free-range time all the time. It makes me mad when I see someone keeping a single hen in a tiny dollhouse-sized coop that it barely fits in. The closest thing I've seen to a better setup out here was the house I saw on my bike ride with the chickens roaming around across the street from their coop. I don't think them crossing the street was great but at least they weren't stuck in a tiny flimsy wooden structure.

On a bit of a side note, the "egg song" thing was also another thing I observed with them. Mine would do it, and once they decided on me as a "rooster", they thought I'd come rescue them from their nest, which I would do. At one point I'd take the egg as soon as I could, but they didn't like that. They'd go back to the nest, look, and if the egg was gone they weren't happy. It turns out mine lay eggs, then leave them, and come back later to check on the egg to ensure it isn't gone. If it isn't gone, they leave happy and don't complain. If it was gone, they would get mad.

 

[Shadrach]

I do think that this can work both ways, though. There's also a difference between some of the behaviours you would call fighting, that I'd probably describe as squabbles or disagreements or someone getting telt, and the kind of fighting that ends in or aims for (more than very minor) bloodshed and injuries.

I accept this but we have to have some structure and discipline in the language we use especially when describing behaviour.
I really detest what I see happening to language where what are perfectly clear and usable words get blurred into meaningless noise due to political correctness or gender politics.

I was looking at what has happened to the word tribe recently. It seems to have joined the burdgeoning group of words that one doesn't use because of how a few have twisted the word into meaning something of lesser worth.
It's perfectly good word.

It's also helpful to be aware that bickering, conflict and aggression are as much of a part of chicken society as they are of ours.
In 25 years plus of chicken keeping, always mixed sex groups bar the recent period at the field after Henry's death I've had maybe five serious fights between males and a few more between females.
Only one such fight between a group of males resulted in a death due to the conflict.
The hen fights resulted in fairly serious injuries at times.

Chickens fight. They have depended on this ability for thousands of years.
Mostly in my experience they are better than we are at keeping conflict to a minimum through non escalation by means of a strict hierarchy and acceptance of their place in it.

My daughters fought. It was constant for a while during their early teens. Nobody died and then it was very common to hear parents say "will you two please stop fighting."
Fighting, it's a perfectly good word that describes physical violence of any level.

I can think of a few threads where people were really stressing about their birds fighting, or bullying or integration issues, when the actual behaviours they described - and in some cases even posted videos of - didn't seem like anything out of the ordinary or a cause for concern, to most of us.

Which is why I like to be honest about what I observe between the chickens. Conflict, if that's a more politically correct description is part of chicken life. It's helpful if people understand this is normal behaviour and my chickens are all angels doesn't help people to understand that the conflict is normal.

Similarly with cockerel and rooster behaviour - just in the last few weeks, I've been bitten (first time moving the LS boy on the roost to make space for the chicks - he's been fine since); charged (went to collect eggs at a time I didn't expect anyone to still be laying - he came running around the corner at her alarm call but stopped just short once he saw it was me); bitten again (thought the spot where I'd patched a hole in my gloves might be edible); probably other things I've already forgotten... If I thought any of those were them "fighting" me I'd probably be posting a panicked thread on here and getting told to kill the bird responsible immediately.

Well they are fighting you; better get posting on the kill the rooster threads.
Funny though, the worst injuries I've had have been from broody hens and I don't read kill the broody. Nope they're excused because they are protecting their chicks. The rooster however who believes he is protecting his tribe doesn't get cut that slack.

It's also interesting that those on the kill the rooster threads are perpetrating far worse violence on the rooster than the rooster was on them. Odd that one.

I have never, and I know what never means, killed a male chicken because of his behaviour towards me.

I think it's important to be aware of the potential for that to turn into something more serious but I don't think it's helpful to lump all those behaviours in with the kind of fighting that says two birds really can't live together.

I agree and I try to make clear what is serious conflict (fighting) and what is bickering and the other levels of violence. However, which ever way one ameliorates such conflicts the word fighting should still be acceptable in my view.

 

[Shadrach]

It turns out mine lay eggs, then leave them, and come back later to check on the egg to ensure it isn't gone. If it isn't gone, they leave happy and don't complain. If it was gone, they would get mad.

Some of the hens I've known do this. I've also had males attack me when they've caught me removing eggs. I don't blame them. I'm stealing their potential chicks. Mow is an egg checker.
I'm not particularly interested in keeping chickens for eggs which helps a bit because I'm quite content to leave them where they're laid for a while and that generally sorts the potential for conflict out.

 

[fuzzi]

I accept this but we have to have some structure and discipline in the language we use especially when describing behaviour.
I really detest what I see happening to language where what are perfectly clear and usable words get blurred into meaningless noise due to political correctness or gender politics.

I was looking at what has happened to the word tribe recently. It seems to have joined the burdgeoning group of words that one doesn't use because of how a few have twisted the word into meaning something of lesser worth.
It's perfectly good word.

It's also helpful to be aware that bickering, conflict and aggression are as much of a part of chicken society as they are of ours.
In 25 years plus of chicken keeping, always mixed sex groups bar the recent period at the field after Henry's death I've had maybe five serious fights between males and a few more between females.
Only one such fight between a group of males resulted in a death due to the conflict.
The hen fights resulted in fairly serious injuries at times.

Chickens fight. They have depended on this ability for thousands of years.
Mostly in my experience they are better than we are at keeping conflict to a minimum through non escalation by means of a strict hierarchy and acceptance of their place in it.

My daughters fought. It was constant for a while during their early teens. Nobody died and then it was very common to hear parents say "will you two please stop fighting."
Fighting, it's a perfectly good word that describes physical violence of any level.

Which is why I like to be honest about what I observe between the chickens. Conflict, if that's a more politically correct description is part of chicken life. It's helpful if people understand this is normal behaviour and my chickens are all angels doesn't help people to understand that the conflict is normal.


Well they are fighting you; better get posting on the kill the rooster threads.
Funny though, the worst injuries I've had have been from broody hens and I don't read kill the broody. Nope they're excused because they are protecting their chicks. The rooster however who believes he is protecting his tribe doesn't get cut that slack.

It's also interesting that those on the kill the rooster threads are perpetrating far worse violence on the rooster than the rooster was on them. Odd that one.

I have never, and I know what never means, killed a male chicken because of his behaviour towards me.

I agree and I try to make clear what is serious conflict (fighting) and what is bickering and the other levels of violence. However, which ever way one ameliorates such conflicts the word fighting should still be acceptable in my view.

I was going to post a suggestion to use the word "conflict" but you beat me to it...

 

[Mother of Chaos]

When we got our chicks a few years ago we thought they were all super cute, and they were going to be cuddly friendly pets that would be trainable. Bought the breeds because of what the factory said they'd be, and even bought a tiny pre-fab coop (which raised red flags in my head)…

Our pullets were all between six and eight weeks old when we got them, and I never expected them to be cuddly, not having been imprinted since hatching. And I was right.

Four of five (the fifth is the youngest) started getting more social and willing to tolerate petting once they were on the verge of lay. And once they associated me with the Bringer of Food, they definitely came up to the chicken fence to inquire as to my purposes.

I’m delighted when they do this, but I don’t expect it, because I wasn’t around when they hatch. I respect their independence.

 

[notabitail]

Our pullets were all between six and eight weeks old when we got them, and I never expected them to be cuddly, not having been imprinted since hatching. And I was right.

Four of five (the fifth is the youngest) started getting more social and willing to tolerate petting once they were on the verge of lay. And once they associated me with the Bringer of Food, they definitely came up to the chicken fence to inquire as to my purposes.

I’m delighted when they do this, but I don’t expect it, because I wasn’t around when they hatch. I respect their independence.

Mine were day-old chicks.

In Albis was the one who really cared about food. Broccoli, turkey, anything that looked like food made her your friend. Her sister Dominica and her friend Agathae were the only others who compared.

She'd come in hoping for food if I was laughing. I used to read reddit while eating lunch, and sometimes I'd explode in laughter. She associated that with food, and if I was reading a book and laughed, she'd poke her head in the screen hoping I was eating.

In Albis also caused a bit of a weird flock dynamic where there were two "lead hens" of sorts. I had 7. Abigail died about a year into having them. In Albis died a year later. Josephine is the lead hen in everything except food. In Albis and Dominica essentially had a "food cartel". When In Albis died Josephine tried taking over, but Dominica ended up not sharing and getting sole monopoly. I don't know if anyone else here has had the same thing happen with theirs.

I do want to get them a rooster sooner or later, probably by way of Agathae-hen going broody and trying to hatch eggs. I don't have the ability to let them range the yard and watch them from my "office" anymore and I can tell they aren't as happy any more since they have a missing part of their day.