Shaws call duck incubation thread (hatch a wonderful(worthless to Ralphie) dux thread)

[casportpony]

Or @Ravynscroft @casportpony

I know nothing.

 

[duluthralphie]

I know nothing.

I could not agree more....

0

 

[orrpeople]

I actually didn't read it all
I just saw the explanation of what the CAM is.
I think maybe it was @Pyxis that had some good info about it?
Or @Ravynscroft @casportpony

The thing I found interesting - besides the fact that with an air permeable membrane so closely tied to primary arterial function, there is immediate response to outside stimuli (@duluthralphie and his hygiene begins to make much more sense) - was the explanation of how the CAM should appear at various stages of healthy development.

 

[orrpeople]

Oh, and I now understand why, with Marans eggs, there is no possible way to see vein development until the primary arteries have grown...

 

[duluthralphie]

The thing I found interesting - besides the fact that with an air permeable membrane so closely tied to primary arterial function, there is immediate response to outside stimuli (@duluthralphie and his hygiene begins to make much more sense) - was the explanation of how the CAM should appear at various stages of healthy development.

Yes, this is the very reason I am so OCD prone with my hatching eggs. Anything can enter the egg through the CAM. The shell itself is porous.

When hatching in an incubator is different than hatching under a hen. With the hen the bloom protects the eggs somewhat.

In an incubator, you want the insides as sterile as you can get it. Unwashed non-sterilized eggs will bring germs inside the incubator. The germs will incubate just like an egg will. Eventually they can overtake the egg killing the chick.

No, it does not happen every time. It may only happen once in a while. We really do not know how often. When I attended my classes put on by the state to become a licensed hatchery, the state vets explained it much better than I did.

All I know is it has not lowered my hatch rate and if anything has improved it. Many times a hen will get 90% hatches or better, but I have seen hens hatch one or two weak chicks too. I assume, this is bacteria or a virus that managed to get through the membranes/shells and infect more eggs..

 

[Ravynscroft]

"chorioallantoic membrane"
Here's a technical article about it. I'm sure there's a less technical article here about it too. I'll see if I can find it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4583126/

That article is dead on... if read through, it does explain the CAM fully...

The CAM is essentially the lungs for the embryo and is responsible for all gas exchanges from the outside environment to the embryo, but also it transports calcium from the shell to the embryo, filters the internal waste products to electrolytes to recycle the nutrients, and acts similar to the bloom of the egg... it protects the embryo from outside contaminents by filtering *but only to the extent that the CAM is not damaged in that filtering process*...

Incomplete CAM development within the proper amount of time leads to restricted amounts of base calcium received by the embryo, higher chances of contaminants reaching the embryo and insufficient oxygen provided for optimal embryo development...

Turners for upright position or 'rocker side turners' inhibit full CAM development... reason for this is, it is attempting to enclose the embryo fully, moving the eggs in different postions to move the embryo around the inside of the egg encourages it to folllow the interior of the shell... embryo staying on one side of the egg it will attempt to go only so far and stop as it can't cut across the middle of the egg...

This is why when hand turning, the more turns that can be done, the better...

 

[BantyChooks]

That article is dead on... if read through, it does explain the CAM fully...

The CAM is essentially the lungs for the embryo and is responsible for all gas exchanges from the outside environment to the embryo, but also it transports calcium from the shell to the embryo, filters the internal waste products to electrolytes to recycle the nutrients, and acts similar to the bloom of the egg... it protects the embryo from outside contaminents by filtering *but only to the extent that the CAM is not damaged in that filtering process*...

Incomplete CAM development within the proper amount of time leads to restricted amounts of base calcium received by the embryo, higher chances of contaminants reaching the embryo and insufficient oxygen provided for optimal embryo development...

Turners for upright position or 'rocker side turners' inhibit full CAM development... reason for this is, it is attempting to enclose the embryo fully, moving the eggs in different postions to move the embryo around the inside of the egg encourages it to folllow the interior of the shell... embryo staying on one side of the egg it will attempt to go only so far and stop as it can't cut across the middle of the egg...

This is why when hand turning, the more turns that can be done, the better...

Thank you, that's very useful. Would you have any advice for what should be done in the case of shipped eggs, when messed up air cells mean that setting upright is more prudent?

 

[duluthralphie]

Thank you, that's very useful. Would you have any advice for what should be done in the case of shipped eggs, when messed up air cells mean that setting upright is more prudent?

What is prudent when dealing with eggs depends more on the species and the quality of the parent stock than the eggs themselves.....

 

[Ravynscroft]

What is prudent when dealing with eggs depends more on the species and the quality of the parent stock than the eggs themselves.....

Correct... though packing eggs properly for optimal shock absorption that doesn't reach the eggs helps tremendously, shipping is always a crapshoot...

Is it prudent to set shipped eggs upright? Who says? Damages done in shipping that affect the actual viability are *not* reversible... if the chalazae becomes separated from the yolk (not something that can be determined by air cell damages) it will never develop, no matter how much or what way it is tried...

IMO, upright setting and minimal tilting actually causes more issues than help... ones I have laid down from the beginning have done just as well or better than ones upright...

 

[duluthralphie]

While I can agree with most I prefer setting the eggs upright and using the turner.... I think there is a trade off between laying them on the side and upright. Upright a slippery air sac MIGHT, emphasis on might stay in place. On the side it will go side saddle.

Type of turner and egg rack plays into this also. I use an egg rack where there are 4 small points of contact on the egg, versus the old ones I had where the entire bottom was cupped (minus the very bottom.

I have to agree completely, there are some eggs no matter what you do will be quitters, red circles of death or non-starters. Some postal facilities are better than others for handling eggs. I find I have to drive 20 miles one way to mail eggs as the post office here in my small town takes a packaged labeled "eggs" as a personal challenge, and tries to break all they can. Also when shipping eggs put insurance on them. (that is buyers choice for me) BUT it is well worth it. there seems to be more supervision over a packaged with the insurance type stickers on them....And whatever you do, do not ship from Minnesota to New Hampshire......someone on that route takes particular joy in breaking eggs and killing chicks. A guaranteed two day trip will take 4 or more!

That trip needs extra insurance as a deterrent to mischievous postal employees.