Sheep People-Advice Please!

[zzGypsy]

there are a couple things on your list I've never used.

b vitamins are short-acting, you'll need to give a shot once or twice a day. I don't know of any b vitamin that is long acting, but then, I'm not a vet.

what the b vitamins do is stimulate their appetite, and that needs to be done repeatedly until she's interested in eating without help.

banamine is good for 12 hours more or less. did the vet give you additional shots for later?

Excede is a long-acting antibiotic, I usually give one shot, and if more is needed another shot 3-4 days later (I'd have to check my medicine chart, but that's what's on the top of my head about it)

quest is a wormer, hopefully he selected that one because it's working locally

I don't have any experience with the other two. we've used steroids in sheep only once, and in horses only a couple of times. vitmix I don't know anything about.

presuming this is a worm anemia issue (white inner eyes) you have to keep her from crashing while the wormer does it's job and then she builds up a proper red blood cell count... that takes weeks. in the mean time she's got to stay hydrated and begin to eat or she can't possibly recover. that's what the banamine and b vitamins helps with. that, and you've got to figure out what's temping enough to get her to try.

I don't recall, do you have other sheep or goats? if you do, they've got worms too and need to be checked (eyelids or fecals) and treated if the worm load is high. there are always some individuals in a group that are more likely to get high worm loads (less resistant for a variety of reasons) so that one will become seriously ill first, but if one has worms, they all do. the best practice is to do fecals regularly, or learn how to do an accurate evaluation using the eyelid (which won't catch all kinds of worms) and then treat those that need it. you want to make sure you treat the affected ones as soon as you know that this is a worm issue. also, if you've got other livestock they may need to be treated as well. some worms are host-specific, some are not, so depending on what the fecal finds, there might need to be a general round of deworming.

there are some things you can do regarding pasture and manure management that help with reducing reinfestation, if you're interested, let's chat after this crisis is past. current thinking on worm management and reducing resistance to drugs (or at least decreasing the pace at wich they become resistant) is only to worm the individuals that need it, only when they need it. then doing a second fecal after treating to make sure your wormer of choice is actually working. if it's not working well enough, it's time to switch drugs. only way to know is a post-treatment fecal.

anyway, call your vet back about the Bvits and additional banamine shots if you need it... and if Dr. Sara is more knowlegable, and you have a relationship already established, call and tell what's already been done, ask my questions, ask if more needs to be done. I don't hesitate to go for a second opinion the moment I know the vet I've got isn't working well for me. I haven't had to do that often, but it's better to get that second opinion than not have the animal get what she needs to recover.

 

[NateinFL]

THANK YOU for all your wonderful info...I just called the vet's cell and asked him about the B Vitamins and he said he gave her more B Vitamins than she could possibly need. And I asked how long it would stay in her system and he said "it will last long enough to get her eating". He said that's kind of like an old saying that B Vitamins start their appetite up. He said I could go ahead and give her more but she's just going to "piss it out anyways".

She is still getting up and moving around, but not eating a bit. I offer her warm water and freshly picked weeds, the type I know they love. And I bring her peanut hay. She doesn't respond to anything right now. At least she knows I care about her. I think you're right, I might need to go ahead and get Dr. Sara to come out and give me advice, even if she doesn't do anything for her, I hate to keep calling her with questions when I haven't paid her a dime. I would gladly pay her the farm visit fee, since she has been more than helpful. She mentioned something that she gives sheep that helps "plug the holes in their linings" after worming. She also mentioned that I get her Pro-Bios from Tractor Supply.

I have a ram and 2 Barbados sheep, and they are all very healthy. I hesitate to start the worming with them since they have never been wormed and I there are arguments online against worming a healthy sheep.

Marjorie helped raise my Barbados lamb that I bought from a meat farm (that was a mistake, but at least she is healthy)

Here is poor Marjorie.

The others wanting to know what is going on.

This is sad. Marjorie with the lamb she has been a motherly figure to. The lamb knows she is not well is often laying down next to her.

 

[NateinFL]

One thing I don't agree about is he said to leave her be and don't stress her out. If I do that, won't she waste away? I know sheep have been known to just "give up". Shouldn't I be out there every hour petting her and encouraging her? I have been offering her warm water and fresh-picked weeds every hour. That IS the right thing to do, right?

 

[zzGypsy]

if she's a pet, and seeks petting and ear scratching or a rub under her chin, then I think doing that is just fine. if she's not used to being handled, or gets nervous, jumpy or wary when she's handled, I'd let her be... you'll feel better, but it will add to her stress.

on the b vitamins, I'll just say that I've got 3 experienced sheep vets who say it works. I've had success with using it to restart sheep after major surgery and major illnesses... sheep we really did not expect to make it. two different vets commented that they stopped telling me to expect a sheep we were treating might die - because I usually was able to save them.

Pay Dr. Sara's farm call... get your second opinion. this vet already told you that he doesn't know much about sheep, and your instincts are telling you you're not comfortable with him, so I'd trust that.

what did this vet say about the additional banamine shots?

did he talk to you about keeping her hydrated / continuing the sheepdrench / etc.? if he didn't, I think he's not done everything he should in terms of educating you and giving you your best shot at saving her.

did he tell you when to have the next fecal done? the only way to know if this wormer worked is to do a follow up fecal test. otherwise, it's just guessing.

I'd be very intersted in what Dr. Sara says about "plugging the holes"... we've never had a critical anemia so I havn't had to address it, but I always want to learn...

probios are a good idea, they will certainly help once her gut heals and she starts to eat, but they do take a while to build up, so they won't help with the current crisis.

re: not worming: worm load is not caused by having wormed in the past, and sheep certainly can come to the state your ewe is in because they've not been wormed when they need it. the right thing to do here is get a fecal done on all your sheep - you don't want to find out too late that there are others in your flock that need worming. if their fecal count is low, you'll know you're doing the right thing with them by not worming. if it's not low enough, you'll know that your current methods aren't working and you need to act to prevent more crisis anemia treatment and the posibility of losing them. I'm not a fan of worming just on general purposes - it contributes to resistant worms and does nothing good for the sheep if they don't need it. but given that you've already got a crisis on your hands, it's important to find out if it's just this one sheep, or if she's just the first one to crash.

your girl has a sweet face, and I'm particularly fond of black sheep, about a third of mine are black...

on giving up, yes, sheep do that. that's part of why I think the b vitamins and banamine are important... she's got to eat and drink and if she's miserable and weak, she may not have the fight in her to get it done. if her buddy lamb hangs with her, that's a help, sheep feel more secure if they're not alone.

did you try offering her the pepto bisomol? peppermint flavor works with my sheep when all else fails. pepto flavored bran mash with soaked alfalfa pellets would help if she'll eat it. the sunflower leaves are good if she'll eat them.

as I said before, worming with the right drug will fix the cause, but you've still got to get her through the next few weeks while she recovers - hydration and calories are what's going to do that. and the more comfortable she feels, the less likely she is to quit trying.

one more thing to ask Dr. Sara about is Redcell. personally I haven't noticed that it helps when building horses up from anemia, but I've got a goat breeder friend who swears it does, and I recently heard a vet say so in a lecture ... the caution would be I don't know 1) if it works and 2) if it's safe for sheep. at any rate, you can ask about it, I'd be interested in what Dr. Sara has to say about it.

so, there you know what I'd be doing... second opinion with the other vet, then hydrate, drench, coax with tasty treats, b vitamin shots, banamine shots, keep in the company of other sheep if they're gentle and friendly with her. and getting fecals on everybody (barbadose are more worm resistant, but not worm-proof.)

BTW, even my best vets don't remember most of my animals's names... not even during the visit... they see a lot of animals. but most of them remember which animal when I describe them over the phone this way "the white sheep with the black eyeliner... the one we treated for an abscess on her shoulder... "

good luck!

 

[Kelly G]

I think (*THINK*) Dr. Sara is there now with him.

She has loads of experience with sheep and goats...........and she's really, really nice.

Fingers crossed for you Nathan.

Big hug.

 

[zzGypsy]

one more thing, if he didn't suggest you should have a fecal done on the other sheep to find out where they stand, that would be another strike against him in my mind.

this sheep is (we believe) heavily infested with worms. she's been shedding parasite eggs wherever she poops in the pasture. they've all been eating in the same pasture, so they've all picked up worm eggs. if her infestation is bad enough to be life threatening, you have to assume the others are at risk as well. only one certain way to find out. if he didn't suggest that, he's not thinking very far ahead... just treating the presenting problem and not considering the overall health of your flock. for me, that's a big strike.

I want my vet not just to help solve the problem at hand, but to think about the future, be proactive. I want him to help prevent problems from happening, not just treat them after they do. and I want him to teach me so I can spot problems earlier, prevent problems, and be a better educated and informed client. trust me, it doesn't mean less income for the vet, it means more success and a better referal rate. there are plenty of folks who won't be proactive and will need him on an emergency basis. I try to be one of those as rarely as possible. it also means I get great service because if I call, my vet knows it's important, because I know how to handle all the small stuff myself. anyway, if you're not getting this kind of vibe from your vet, i'd say it's not a fit at all.

 

[NateinFL]

I am very tired and about to go to bed, but I did want to mention that Dr. Sara called me back and told me to buy Cream of Wheat, and feed her about 80cc's of it. I did that, and I mixed the Pro Bios from Tractor Supply in with it. I just went out and force fed it to her. She didn't seem to mind. I will be going to work in the morning but I have a good friend that is going to come take care of Marjorie, more Cream of Wheat and Bios. My friend Jennifer has a lot of experience with goats and really wants Marjorie to get better (she's a true animal lover).

The vet that came out today has a lot of "strikes" from the lack of information he gave me, but I'm going to focus on her getting better. Thank God and Thank KELLY G for providing me the contact to Dr. Sara.

Dr. Sara has some syringes of vitamins, etc, she wants me to pick up from her, but she has not called me back yet. I am thankful for her help and hopefully I can meet up with her tomorrow.

I appreciate the help "Gypsy" and Kelly. You are both wonderful people.

Nathan

 

[zzGypsy]

good luck with her!
get a good nights rest and keep us posted...

 

[Kelly G]

Gypsy knows much, much more than me - but I am glad to help you anytime.

I will never forget you were willing to drop everything and help me this summer when the horses broke their fence...that meant a lot to me.

One can never have too many good friends - text me if you need anything tomorrow - cell will be in my pocket.

 

[zzGypsy]

Quote:
but you know, this is how we all learn...

and there's nothing like friends who can actually be there.