Should I switch from layer to grower? Hens not laying

[Jada22]

I'm going to be really boring and shed a bit of daylight on the 10% treat rule rather than the dim 40 Watt bulb it's usually examined under.

This is one of those "truths" that need some context before it makes much sense.
Any addition to commercial balanced feed, be that forage, or other types food given by the keeper will alter the nutrition that the bird receives. We have a pretty good idea of the nutrition and it's composition that will provide a hen with what she needs to live and lay eggs. There has been a lot of research put into this and the evidence overwhelmingly agrees; some people feed their birds nothing but commercial feed and their birds live and lay eggs.

There is the often quoted advice to only give 10% of the hens nutritional intake as treats so one doesn't upset this delicate balance.
What about free range hens fed commercial feed? They are going to forage and eat all kinds of grubs, roots, grasses, seeds, worms, reptiles, mice, other dead birds etc etc. They still lay eggs. The hens I've known were extremely heathy living to 9+ years old provided they avoided getting killed by a predator. Many other people will tell you a similar story. There is zero possibility that a free range chicken will eat less than 10% of it's total diet in forage from dawn till dusk. They still live and lay eggs.

Suppose the treat were to be a few ounces of cooked white fish. The nutritional analysis of both is worth reading about. Do all those extra nutriants and amino acids found in fish reduce the nurtional worth of the commercial feed? Extend this to the forages I've mentioned above and some of them are likely to exceed that percentages of some of the chemicals in the commercial feed.
So, it's what you give as treats that is important and what a chicken forages, not the percentage.

Commercial feed ( produced and fed in massive quantities in the last 100 years) is a relatively new development in rather unfortunate 8000 year history of the chicken. However, they managed to survive and lay eggs for those 7900 years without it.

I recently read an excited report that studies had been done that suggest chcikens know exactly what they need to eat to survive and lay eggs. I wonder how they thought the chicken had lived for the other 7900 years.
One of the prefered feeding methods is to feed a low calcium feed in mixed age and gender flocks and provide a free choice source of calcium. This requires the chicken to make a choice about what they eat and the system works and the chickens live and lay eggs.

Some people do what the large batteries do and keep their chickens confined all their lives and only feed them commercial feed. In such a case then yes the 10% rule makes sense. The large commercial concerns have carried out studies and worked out what a laying hens minimum nutritional requirements are and developed feed to those requirements. The feed is designed to give maximum egg production, or growth, at the minimum cost under fully confined keeping circumstances. Given the feed is at minimum requirements any major percentage change in the balance may have an adverse effect.

In just about any other circumstance it doesn't make any sense at all.

Very interesting, thank you.
I would prefer to offer more “treats” but I always got caught up in upsetting the balance and not following the 10% rule I’ve heard of.
Their treats mostly consist of wild bird seed and veg, occasionally meat so I don’t think what I offer is very low in nutritional value.
They are definitely eating a lot more feed now then when they used to free range.

 

[ptrusselle]

The only other option is chick crumb which is 20% protein.
All stores in my area only carry the one brand of feed- I can technically get other brands but it would double my feed costs due to shipping. Charges for shipping is per bag

Need to watch chick crumb medicated vs non medicated. Dont medicate the layers. all chickens need a "time off" period. Up north will be more tied to the winter time with less light. Northern folks will get more eggs it they continue with a light in th coop so they are getting more light 12 hours +/-. . Then turn if off when you have the same natural light. If you dont have a good time off periods, they drag on and sputter out a few eggs here and there having a hard time starting up full production. Think of a hen as a pregnant animal. She goes into bird labor everyday, has higher food requirements to maintain that production. Idle hens and rooster require less nutrients . Growing birds needs kinda in between Commercial growers follow this closely for their bottom line. If you only have one group , feed them by their stage in life. Mixed bird types All flock is good. But give layers extra like shells and bugs and greens .Even in the milk cow industry, time off cows definitely get feed a lesser feed as the milking cow ration would actually do more harm and cause a milk fever situation when they give birth to bring milk in. Layers the same. If their in time off. less treats ,less available high content food ,let them be idle, stop laying and rest, molt, etc. There body needs to fully rest , build back up, and come back after vacation to ramp back up into production. light off too. Commercial growers will sometimes molt out a coop and vacay them for 2 months, then restart them back up again. Other times they just cull the entire coop 10,000-20,000 hens at end of first production and off to Campbell Soup they go. They start by turning the lights back on and ramping up their food for the work ahead of the girls.

 

[ptrusselle]

I'm going to be really boring and shed a bit of daylight on the 10% treat rule rather than the dim 40 Watt bulb it's usually examined under.

This is one of those "truths" that need some context before it makes much sense.
Any addition to commercial balanced feed, be that forage, or other types food given by the keeper will alter the nutrition that the bird receives. We have a pretty good idea of the nutrition and it's composition that will provide a hen with what she needs to live and lay eggs. There has been a lot of research put into this and the evidence overwhelmingly agrees; some people feed their birds nothing but commercial feed and their birds live and lay eggs.

There is the often quoted advice to only give 10% of the hens nutritional intake as treats so one doesn't upset this delicate balance.
What about free range hens fed commercial feed? They are going to forage and eat all kinds of grubs, roots, grasses, seeds, worms, reptiles, mice, other dead birds etc etc. They still lay eggs. The hens I've known were extremely heathy living to 9+ years old provided they avoided getting killed by a predator. Many other people will tell you a similar story. There is zero possibility that a free range chicken will eat less than 10% of it's total diet in forage from dawn till dusk. They still live and lay eggs.

Suppose the treat were to be a few ounces of cooked white fish. The nutritional analysis of both is worth reading about. Do all those extra nutriants and amino acids found in fish reduce the nurtional worth of the commercial feed? Extend this to the forages I've mentioned above and some of them are likely to exceed that percentages of some of the chemicals in the commercial feed.
So, it's what you give as treats that is important and what a chicken forages, not the percentage.

Commercial feed ( produced and fed in massive quantities in the last 100 years) is a relatively new development in rather unfortunate 8000 year history of the chicken. However, they managed to survive and lay eggs for those 7900 years without it.

I recently read an excited report that studies had been done that suggest chcikens know exactly what they need to eat to survive and lay eggs. I wonder how they thought the chicken had lived for the other 7900 years.
One of the prefered feeding methods is to feed a low calcium feed in mixed age and gender flocks and provide a free choice source of calcium. This requires the chicken to make a choice about what they eat and the system works and the chickens live and lay eggs.

Some people do what the large batteries do and keep their chickens confined all their lives and only feed them commercial feed. In such a case then yes the 10% rule makes sense. The large commercial concerns have carried out studies and worked out what a laying hens minimum nutritional requirements are and developed feed to those requirements. The feed is designed to give maximum egg production, or growth, at the minimum cost under fully confined keeping circumstances. Given the feed is at minimum requirements any major percentage change in the balance may have an adverse effect.

In just about any other circumstance it doesn't make any sense at all.

Most folks today dont have any idea about feeds like our forefathers did. They grew what they what they needed for the animal they keep on the farm. Folks just go to the feed store or even Walmart in some places, now for convenience. and buy by cost mostly.
Example In the horse world "backyard" horse folk, have little knowledge, buy a horse and feed it. They buy what is available, sweet feed or pellets. Now the feed companies offer a huge variation of quality, life stages, performance feeds and the price goes higher for each type. Commercial horse folks adhere the the best quality to protect their investment. Race horses get 20 pounds of oats and supplements when racing and top quality hay. Backyard horse gets 6-10 pounds of mixed grains or pasture only and mix hay. Each grain component does different things. Molasses is added to mixed grain style to hide the yucky taste of some grains. Molasses makes soft, sweaty muscles in horse but they would kill to get it. (Sweet tooth). Oats are pure top energy and types them up. etc.
If your not happy with your feeds and the price, ever thought to try and make your own mix on a small scale? Might save money and get better results. Feeds today are pellets, which are heated and compressed, crumbles which are heated and sieved or meal which are straight grains finer ground like the old days. These are easier to make costly less, but seldom seen in the grain stores. Granted you would need a mill type store to buy some different grains to mix together vs TSC etc. Commercial coops use meal to run down the augers to feed. Pellets and crumbles can have a higher mix of less desirable grains to get the requirements for each type of animal, it gets eaten anyway due to its "packaging". Meal the birds get to chose what they want and need so the grains have to be more desirable t eat.
e

 

[Rurumo]

Chickens do fine with lower protein diets as long as they are supplemented with optimal amounts of the 2 limiting amino acids, lysine and methionine-that's why we look for the %s of those on the bags. There are a very large # of studies looking at protein content in layer feed and one of the most interesting things I've taken away from them is that with every 1% reduction in protein content, there is a massive reduction in both uric acid and ammonia-I've seen up to 30% reduction for each in studies. The implications of this are huge for any indoor poultry keepers. The chickens are just excreting all those unused amino acids as uric acid and ammonia-so reducing the protein content, or rather, finding the ideal protein % and the ideal lysine/methionine % for that protein level, is a major way for indoor poultry keepers to improve their air quality.

This matters much less to most folks here because the #s of chickens we keep doesn't necessitate keeping the overall protein content low simply for air quality concerns, but it's still interesting.

 

[aynesidea]

My chickens are not laying- I have 4 Rhode Island mixes under 2 years- between the 4 of them I get an egg maybe every 2nd or 3rd day
I have a maran who is almost 1 and had never laid. I have a silkie 2 years and a polish hen same age as the maran and from those 2 I’m getting an egg maybe every 2nd day. I have 2 younger silkies approx 7 months not laying yet.
I have another polish hen the same age as the one who is occasionally laying but she has never laid and I have 3 Pekin hens 2 are approx 10 months and one is around 6 months all not laying.
I switched to layers feed for them thinking they’d start to lay with the brighter days but They’re not. Worried that the layers feed could start to cause problems when they are not laying.
Should I switch everyone to grower?
Is it a suitable feed for older hens? Would the option of crushed egg shells on the side be enough calcium for the girls who are laying or should I add something else?

They’re on red mills layer pellets- the grower feed would be the same brand treats are less than 10%

Where did your flock come from?

 

[Jada22]

Most folks today dont have any idea about feeds like our forefathers did. They grew what they what they needed for the animal they keep on the farm. Folks just go to the feed store or even Walmart in some places, now for convenience. and buy by cost mostly.
Example In the horse world "backyard" horse folk, have little knowledge, buy a horse and feed it. They buy what is available, sweet feed or pellets. Now the feed companies offer a huge variation of quality, life stages, performance feeds and the price goes higher for each type. Commercial horse folks adhere the the best quality to protect their investment. Race horses get 20 pounds of oats and supplements when racing and top quality hay. Backyard horse gets 6-10 pounds of mixed grains or pasture only and mix hay. Each grain component does different things. Molasses is added to mixed grain style to hide the yucky taste of some grains. Molasses makes soft, sweaty muscles in horse but they would kill to get it. (Sweet tooth). Oats are pure top energy and types them up. etc.
If your not happy with your feeds and the price, ever thought to try and make your own mix on a small scale? Might save money and get better results. Feeds today are pellets, which are heated and compressed, crumbles which are heated and sieved or meal which are straight grains finer ground like the old days. These are easier to make costly less, but seldom seen in the grain stores. Granted you would need a mill type store to buy some different grains to mix together vs TSC etc. Commercial coops use meal to run down the augers to feed. Pellets and crumbles can have a higher mix of less desirable grains to get the requirements for each type of animal, it gets eaten anyway due to its "packaging". Meal the birds get to chose what they want and need so the grains have to be more desirable t eat.
e

I have actually previously asked for advice here on growing grains etc to potentially make my own feed. I didn’t get good feedback and was told to stick to store bought.
If I had a solid plan to follow on mixing feed I would try it- especially as I have the space to grow some of what I’d need here.
I was looking in to it for 2 reasons- 1 in case supply of feed dries up which I’m actually having a problem with right now- I’ve switched my chickens to chick crumb and all stores have been out of it for the last 2 weeks they’ve also increased the price by 50% which I wouldn’t mind so much if I could get it!
The other reason being I would prefer to feed fresh- my dogs get fed a partial raw diet for the same reason.
Even if I could figure out how to supplement part of the chicken feed with fresh grains and still keep a balanced diet I’d be happy.

 

[Jada22]

Where did your flock come from?

Different places- I have a couple ex battery hens and some hens I bought as adults and some others I bought as chicks or even hatching eggs and incubated myself from different people.

 

[Jada22]

Chickens do fine with lower protein diets as long as they are supplemented with optimal amounts of the 2 limiting amino acids, lysine and methionine-that's why we look for the %s of those on the bags. There are a very large # of studies looking at protein content in layer feed and one of the most interesting things I've taken away from them is that with every 1% reduction in protein content, there is a massive reduction in both uric acid and ammonia-I've seen up to 30% reduction for each in studies. The implications of this are huge for any indoor poultry keepers. The chickens are just excreting all those unused amino acids as uric acid and ammonia-so reducing the protein content, or rather, finding the ideal protein % and the ideal lysine/methionine % for that protein level, is a major way for indoor poultry keepers to improve their air quality.

This matters much less to most folks here because the #s of chickens we keep doesn't necessitate keeping the overall protein content low simply for air quality concerns, but it's still interesting.

Interesting for sure but yes not really a problem as there’s no air quality concerns. I wonder does it do any harm to them to have the extra protein or is it easily excreted

 

[Jada22]

Need to watch chick crumb medicated vs non medicated. Dont medicate the layers. all chickens need a "time off" period. Up north will be more tied to the winter time with less light. Northern folks will get more eggs it they continue with a light in th coop so they are getting more light 12 hours +/-. . Then turn if off when you have the same natural light. If you dont have a good time off periods, they drag on and sputter out a few eggs here and there having a hard time starting up full production. Think of a hen as a pregnant animal. She goes into bird labor everyday, has higher food requirements to maintain that production. Idle hens and rooster require less nutrients . Growing birds needs kinda in between Commercial growers follow this closely for their bottom line. If you only have one group , feed them by their stage in life. Mixed bird types All flock is good. But give layers extra like shells and bugs and greens .Even in the milk cow industry, time off cows definitely get feed a lesser feed as the milking cow ration would actually do more harm and cause a milk fever situation when they give birth to bring milk in. Layers the same. If their in time off. less treats ,less available high content food ,let them be idle, stop laying and rest, molt, etc. There body needs to fully rest , build back up, and come back after vacation to ramp back up into production. light off too. Commercial growers will sometimes molt out a coop and vacay them for 2 months, then restart them back up again. Other times they just cull the entire coop 10,000-20,000 hens at end of first production and off to Campbell Soup they go. They start by turning the lights back on and ramping up their food for the work ahead of the girls.

It’s non medicated.
They were out of molt and had plenty time off at the time of this post.
I changed to chick crumb although that’s becoming hard to get recently.
I have had an increase in lay unsure if it’s due to time of year change in feed or something else.

 

[Yardmom]

Interesting for sure but yes not really a problem as there’s no air quality concerns. I wonder does it do any harm to them to have the extra protein or is it easily excreted

To high of protein can cause problems. I have not personally researched this, but have read you would have to feed a higher percentage of protein than any traditional stage of chicken feed would provide in order to cause harm.