Shouldn't pine be dangerous, too?

[Shady]

With most of my rodents it's recommended NOT to use pine or cedar, due to oils that cause respiratory infections. They are called phenols... could they harm chicks, too? I was a little surprised I couldn't find any posts on this... but I am a novice. Could I use aspen instead? I already keep large amounts for my rats/mice/guinea pigs.
Here are some links about pine and cedar:
http://www.ratfanclub.org/litters.html ("Another study found that chickens kept on softwood shavings had a higher incidence of respiratory infections")
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2.htm

 

[paddock36]

Don't use cedar for chicks 'cause it is bad for them, but pine is ok for chicks.

 

[Imp]

To answer your question. Yes Aspen is OK.

Imp

 

[vkp23]

From what I've heard the reason Cedar is bad is because the ammonia in the urine is amplified by the cedar. Thus causing small animals to be poisoned by ammonia. I've had small animals like you (rats, mice Guinea pigs, rabbits, dwarf hamsters, etc.) and have never had a problem with pine. My small animals were not so happy with the cedar. That was before I heard about cedar being bad for small animals. Then I switched to pine and have used it for all my small animals for about 13 years.

 

[MagsC]

I have also heard that pine isnt the greatest for them either but aspen works.

 

[Shady]

I don't think my post was very clear

. What I was asking was: "What are your thoughts on pine?" and "Do you think Aspen is better?".

 

[DMCunningham]

Pine is a bad choice for birds of any type. Many people are not aware of the toxicity of pine and cedar on animals because much of the research is limited to scientific reports that usually only well studied vets and similar are privy to.

Also, another reason is because of the mental reinforcement of animal stores that sell these toxic woods for the use of small animals. Many store owners are unaware of the toxic affects, and those that are aware and still sell it anyway because either their customers continue to request that litter - even though the store employees recommend against it - or more often times the store owners care more about making money than the welfare of their customer's animals. I have worked at many pet stores and have warned against thees toxic litters, and many customers have thanked me for telling them, and some even switched litters after I've had to show them the photocopied research papers. Some customers thought I was out to make a buck because all of the other litters cost more (which is another reason pine and cedar is used so frequently - it is so darn cheap compared to other litters) even though I've shown the customer the research on the woods. Some customers continue to use pine and cedar because they've "used pine/cedar for years on many animals and none of them have ever gotten sick," or the similar excuse "if it was so bad for them, why do these companies still make it, therefore it must be OK for my animals and I've never heard of any animals ever getting sick because of wood."

I was fired once because the store owner was mad because I continued to inform customers about how toxic these litters are, and since those were the only litters that store sold that meant that his customers had to go somewhere else to buy litter. He was afraid that the customers would buy other things at the other stores while they were there and not come back to his shop. Even though he had some of the most loyal customers I've ever seen, and despite his refusal to buy any other litter (because the others cost more, and supposedly he thought his customers would not wan to pay the higher price - even though they were requesting it) he insisted on not buying anything else and thought that relieving me of my position would be a better choice. Well, many of his customers followed me to my next place of employment because of the care that I had for them and their animals and his shop closed down less than a year later.

There are many studies on the toxicity of pine, cedar, and a few others on small animals, birds, reptiles, and insects (for those people that keep insects as pets). It takes some time and effort to find them (which is another reason why a very large majority of people have no idea about it - because even after they are told about it, they tend to not want to take the time to research the facts for themselves.

OK, now that I'm off my soap box, yes Aspen is OK for birds, and you must follow similar safety precautions as you would with any other small animal or rodent when using it. I'm more of a fan of not using any word for litter for birds, but if you are going to use a type of wood, stay away from the soft woods, choose a good hard wood like Aspen.

Thank you very much for bringing up this question.

 

[Akane]

Pine is just less toxic than cedar so it usually doesn't cause symptoms often enough to make people stop using it. Whereas cedar causes obvious enough symptoms that most accept it's not such a good choice and it makes every toxic list in existence. Kiln dried pine is better than fresh pine. Pine pellets are even better. The more heated and dried it is the more the toxic oils are removed. Also ventilation makes a huge difference. 2" deep of cedar in a solid sided brooder, small animal cage, reptile tank, etc... will kill quickly. 2" deep of cedar in an open sided building on a hill may not give any obvious symptoms. Doesn't mean it isn't causing internal organ damage but you won't see the extreme respiratory symptoms. Pine in a properly ventilated coop or animal shelter is rarely going to cause visible symptoms. You can argue the level of not visible symptoms. I have and most don't really seem to listen. In a brooder fresh pine could cause symptoms but not often enough it gets blamed for any respiratory symptoms. I use spruce when I can. It has less phenols than usual pine while acting exactly the same. Even if you get fresh still damp spruce you can't smell it a day later. Most of the time it doesn't get marked specifically when the bags are spruce though so you have to look for brands.

Hardwoods like aspen do not contain phenols. They do tend to make poor bedding for other reasons though. They splinter more so you can get sharp pieces that poke in to things and cause puncture wounds instead of soft bedding. Sometimes you can find brands that are cut more squarely but it's never quite comparable. They are also less absorbent. I'd use pine pellets before hardwood shavings. The cost will probably come out the same in the end and the risk is minimal with the pellets due to all the heating, drying, and pressure required to make the pellet. Not much remains for oils or they wouldn't get that really high absorbency.

 

[DMCunningham]

Akane, I agree with your post and am happy to learn that you use common sense when choosing your applications of various litters.

Quote:
The splintering and lack of high absorbency are some of the reasons why I personally don't care to use hardwoods for bedding. However, if I could only choose wood as a litter, I would choose hardwoods over soft woods. When people use aspen as litter, splintering is one of the biggest problems that most owners must be careful of.

Quote:
When it comes to very processed woods, the cost does tend to go up, and that's why many people will opt for shavings (if available) over pellets.

Thank you for your input.

 

[CrazyFowlFreak]

I use pine needles in the winter for my fowl, they love it and no problems so far. This way is okay, isn't it?