Showing unrecognized breeds/colors

[Yellow House Farm]

Absolutely! And I wouldn't even say that I don't like them, per se; they're just not good birds. Like so many of the new fads, they are in outstanding need of refinement, and there a ten breeds for each of these fads that have more heritage and culture backing them in one wing-feather and that are much worthier an enterprise than picking up a random import from a scam artist and then giving it the title of "rare", which, of course, makes them sound much more precious than they are.

 

[3riverschick]

Absolutely! And I wouldn't even say that I don't like them, per se; they're just not good birds. Like so many of the new fads, they are in outstanding need of refinement, and there a ten breeds for each of these fads that have more heritage and culture backing them in one wing-feather and that are much worthier an enterprise than picking up a random import from a scam artist and then giving it the title of "rare", which, of course, makes them sound much more precious than they are.

Hear, hear! I made that mistake! Got involved with Marans but decided I wanted the ultra rare Golden Salmon Marans ( French name for Black Breasted Red).
Tried about 5 times to get started and failed because quality was so poor in accessible flocks. I never realized that enthusiasm alone wouldn't make things work. Genes had to be stable for consistency and that was a lot more complicated in poultry because of all the sex-linked genes. So I finally left and obtained a wonderful start in show quality Light Sussex. It has 4 nice advantages. The breed history is written in English. The breed has a rich literary history to learn from. It has strains which are vintage and linebred. Winning in multiple generations in quality APA competition. Which means stable genes I can use to linebreed, inbreed, win, and/or create a new strain of my own. Now I have pride in my birds instead excuses.
Best Regards,
Waterford English Light Sussex
Karen in western PA, USA

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Hear, hear! I made that mistake! Got involved with Marans but decided I wanted the ultra rare Golden Salmon Marans ( French name for Black Breasted Red).
Tried about 5 times to get started and failed because quality was so poor in accessible flocks. I never realized that enthusiasm alone wouldn't make things work. Genes had to be stable for consistency and that was a lot more complicated n poultry because of all the sex-linked genes. So I finally left and obtained a wonderful start in show quality Light Sussex. It has 4 nice advantages. The breed history is written in English. The breed has a rich literary history to learn from. It has strains which are vintage and linebred. Winning in multiple generations in quality APA competition. Which means stable genes I can use to linebreed, inbreed, win, and/or create a new strain of my own. Now I have pride in my birds instead excuses.
Best Regards,
Waterford English Light Sussex
Karen in western PA, USA

Excellent post! It's humble, in the sense that it's grounded, and it's authentic, in that it springs from informing experience. We all...and I do me we/me have lots of past "failures" from which to learn, draw experience, and teach. Indeed, the desire to know will bring you down some pretty funky paths.

It is very nice to have birds with history, community, and quality.

So much of what is called rare is, and always was, junk. The left-overs of someone's color project that they did for a few years and then that was it. Decades later folks call them "rare" as if they ever possessed any sort of significance at all. Most, not all, but most "rare" colors are "rare" because either they were never of top quality to begin with or because the were redundant, meaning other breeds already "own" the color so why would one bother working with that color in a strain of a breed where there's never going to be enough people working with them to increase the selection pool to attain quality.

Once people start following the rules, they start enjoying much more.

 

[chambe94]

Well, this WAS a nice conversation.

Nothing like implying someone is stupid and gullible for not wanting to sick with some random notion of "perfection" in a small selection of breeds and colors. Using the term "rare" was probably a mistake, but its habit. GFF isn't the only one that knows how to market birds to a population that has no desire what so ever to show. That doesn't make you a scam artist it makes you a business person.

Thanks again for your earlier advise though.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Well, this WAS a nice conversation.

Nothing like implying someone is stupid and gullible for not wanting to sick with some random notion of "perfection" in a small selection of breeds and colors. Using the term "rare" was probably a mistake, but its habit. GFF isn't the only one that knows how to market birds to a population that has no desire what so ever to show. That doesn't make you a scam artist it makes you a business person.

Thanks again for your earlier advise though.

Hmmm...I just went over this thread two times, and I didn't see where you said "rare"; so I'm not really sure what you're getting at specifically.

As far as Green Fire Farms go, I go back and forth. I certainly appreciate the notion of a capitalist economy where if you want to sell it and someone wants to buy it it's l good. Sure works for me.

For clarity's sake, I wouldn't worry about me "implying" things. I tend not to dissimulate what I'm thinking. I rarely use the term stupid, and I infrequently think in terms of gullibility. However, am I quite clear on the reality that "GFF" has no marketing success among those of us who understand poultry breeding and thus see there stock clearly for what it is? Yes, we are al quite clear that he's making a buck on people who don't actually have the poultry background to know that the stock that he sells--as far as stock goes--is of little value. If it fills the niche for someone dreaming, about the idea of something imported and people are willing to spend money for that title, that's cool.

Of course the APA Standard isn't "some random notion of perfection"; it is, indeed, in no way random but exceedingly intentional and established by some of the best and most knowledgeable livestock breeders that have ever lived on earth. Also, by your comment, "a small collection of breeds and colors", I am led to believe that you don't own your own Standard because, if you were to, you would know that the North American standard is among the top four on earth: North America, the UK , the Netherlands, and Germany are really the highest achieving poultry cultures in history.

However this raises an absolutely fascinating question. I wonder if non APA folks have any idea as to the depth and breadth of variety in the Standard? Perhaps that would explain why these imports would have any allure. On one of these threads I was asked why I thought some people were drawn to these imports, and really I had no answer. Could it be that folks really have no idea of the dozens and dozens and dozens of breeds and varieties that are available in sophisticated form, representing the genetic work of generations, among APA breeders, such that a laced Orpington color project might appear interesting just because the color was imported? Huh, I've never thought of that before.

 

[gjensen]

Well, this WAS a nice conversation.

Nothing like implying someone is stupid and gullible for not wanting to sick with some random notion of "perfection" in a small selection of breeds and colors. Using the term "rare" was probably a mistake, but its habit. GFF isn't the only one that knows how to market birds to a population that has no desire what so ever to show. That doesn't make you a scam artist it makes you a business person.

Thanks again for your earlier advise though.

I do not think anyone meant to imply that anyone was not intelligent.

I think what was meant was that some time in the hobby, we begin to appreciate different things.

There is certainly nothing wrong with choosing a breed that is not a standardized breed or variety. Many long term breeders have both standardized breeds and not. The SPPA supports many of these breeds in addition to those that are standardized. Also many experienced breeders, some of the best, have color projects of their own.

On the other hand, there is some wisdom in choosing a breed that is established here. Also showing them, and enjoying the support of those more experienced. Neither are necessary, but I see a value in it.

Understand that it can be a bit disheartening to see the fads that has come along with the importation of these breeds, and that what is generally imported is not especially high quality. Many are barely average where they come from. Especially that we already have a surplus of rare and neglected breeds here. They lack promotion, a story, or a different egg color. This opinion is not to say that there is anything wrong with feeling otherwise.

It is not unreasonable to expect opinions such as these in this section of the forum. I knew where this was going when you commented originally.

This debate is not new, and the importation of new breeds is not new. I think we should all embrace the variety of breeds, interests, and people that this hobby represents. Fads come and go. If the breed has any lasting value, it will be because it had become established with good and committed breeders. Breeders that valued them enough to continue with them, and are successful with them.Time will tell if that takes place.

I can relate with both sides of this ongoing debate.

Time will tell if the new breeds last or not.

What is needed is more good breeders.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
A lot of good points being expressed here. Several I would like to touch on.
1. Why are people drawn to the "rare" and "imported" breeds. I will get a bit philosophical here because I like to deal with the "bottom line". I think it makes understanding topics easier. Daniel Pink wrote a book circa 2008 called, "A Whole New Mind". In it, he discusses the developmental "Ages" of human culture. The different ones up thru the Industrial Age, the Nuclear Age. The Information Age and a new one which seems to have started circa 2002, "The Design Age". His thesis is that with the surplus of everyday goods and the outsourcing of the "Information Age " overseas, plus several other things...as an American people we have accomplished a cultural shift to the "Design Age" in this new century. We look for the different and design driven products and features in our goods and services. Not just a pen, a hand turned one out of deer antler. Not just a car, a moving computer. Not just a chicken, but one which will stand out in the crowd for some reason or purpose. In America now, our lives are filled with surplus, instead we now seek the different, the design driven. And I believe along with that comes the desire to be part of the designing. I believe this is an major reason we see folks attracted to the rarer and unusual breeds. It is not a bad thing, it is a cultural phenomenon in America.
2. The "winnowing" effect of rare breeds on poultry people. That's basically what it is. An enthusiastic novice comes into the poultry world wanting to "join the club" as it were , and breed/show, make pets of or otherwise make use of poultry. They get enamored of the rare breeds and set out to add another page to the Standard of Perfection. Many of these folk come from the mammal raising community. Thinking that poultry are as easy to breed as cats or dogs. Not understanding the plethora of sex-linked genes which make poultry so much harder to breed than mammals. They pick a pretty, rare breed with pretty colors, expecting them to replicate like mammals. Not understanding the stability of genes needed to replicate a color pattern in poultry where the ratio of colors to body section s actually written into the Standard instead of just certain colors/hues being required. Not understanding that rare breeds are rare for a reason and not just because they are a "save the breed!" project. or a "former fab, now neglected" strain. They are rare because the birds aren't that unusual, the color pattern is too complicated, the gene pools too small, the history too sparse for further education, the overall quality of the birds just too run down, etc.
Being included in the Standard of Perfection doesn't make a breed highbrow, or elite or so common it doesn't merit a design driven person's attention. It does mean that those breeds are/have been bred to a level of quality where they can be depended on to reliably replicate themselves for the breeder. They may not all be show champion quality, but they will be reliable representatives of their breed in both breed type and production values. That is what standardbred means. It is a hallmark of heritage and quality. A signpost to the novice that this is a reliable place to start. Yes, we still need to be discerning in our selection skills of both foundation stock and breeding skills, however, Standardbred stock are a good place to start.
Back to the winnowing effect. the novice chooses the rare breed for whatever reason. What usually follows are multiple failures to begin based on poor quality stock, inability to gain access to quality flocks, ignorance of other fellow breeders, downright cheating on the part of other breeders, sadly gained knowledge of complicated color patterns and small gene pools. etc. These folk usually last about 5 yrs. then leave out of frustration and defeat. Folk who could have been quality breeders with standardbred stock and someone in their chosen breed to teach them. Rare breeds winnow out prospective breeders.
3. YHF wrote: I wonder if non APA folks have any idea as to the depth and breadth of variety in the Standard? After 5 years on BYC and reading countless posts on a plethora of subjects, I have to say, "No, they don't". The novice here seems to choose breeds they pick for features' sake, sentiments' sake, go with the crowds' sake, rarities' sake. I can't remember the last time I read anyone choosing a breed because they found it in the Standard of Perfection. . Personally I think that's because the book can only be got thru the APA and its not widely publicized like Gail Damerow's and other author's books. Plus it is expensive for the novice when they don't see the need yet. Perhaps an online listing of the various APA breeds and their varieties along with a link to feathersite ( which is the only site I can think of with a comprehensive pictorial poultry encyclopedia) might help. Maybe headline the page with. "These are the breeds you can show to Championships ! Compete for prizes with Standardbred APA stock ! " With so many vying for the novice's attention, people need a reason to look at the list.
Best,
Karen

 

[NanaKat]

Not seriously considering it yet.  But I have Cream Legbars (they, at least are working toward a SOP) and Isbars and I was wondering if they were something my son could show when he's a little older (he's only 4 right now, so no rush).  Or if I should just buy him a traditional breed later on.

Part of my thought being (with the Isbars) since there is no SOP do I just breed for what I think looks pretty, or if they could be shown, I would breed more towards a type that judges would find appealing (which may or may not match my idea of "pretty" )

I agree with the advice that getting your son a breed to show that is recognized by APA/ABA would be more rewarding for him.
And I understand your desire to breed for improvement in your Isbars and Cream Legbars. Perhaps by studying the SOP on the breeds used to make your chosen breeds would give you an ideal to breed towards in both structure, vitality and Standard. If you are intent on improving breeds that are not yet recognized in the SOP, conversing with others interested in Isbars and Cream Legbars might develop a unified gaol for those breeds.

Valid points have been made by those who have commented here as well.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Thank you, gjensen, for such a well-reasoned response. It provides a very good overview.

Chambe94, I can understand your frustration, but I do not believe that any offense was intended. As someone who has taken YHF to task in the past for being too blunt on a non-SOP thread, I believe that he only has the best intentions in helping new or potential breeders who want to improve their stock. But this is specifically an SOP section of BYC, so the conversation will be a bit more direct for those who chose to venture in. Sometimes it takes some time to develop that thicker skin, but in time I have come to appreciate the honesty, and am grateful that I can trust the information I receive here.

I would, however, like to disagree with the belief that the SOP represents a "random notion of perfection." I must admit that 20 years ago I also had that attitude, not just about the SOP for chickens, but for all "purebred" animals. Then I started working with dog and cat breeders, and life experience has changed my mind. I see so many breeders that don't select for standard traits properly, and in many cases the animals suffer. There are severe health and disability concerns for animals that have improperly balanced skeletons, poor leg angles, shortened nasal passages and jaws, elongated or shortened backs, etc. When you're dealing with livestock, poor conformation affects utility. Breeding poorly built animals together compounds that problem, until eventually you have an animal that bears little resemblance to the true historical breed, either in appearance, performance, health, or vigor. And while some changes may seem insignificant ("Who cares if a rooster has one white feather in his wing?"), the reality is that on the genetic map, minor color changes are often paired with other, really important things that affect long term health, or reproductive ability, or a hundred other things that can make the difference between a great bird and a not-so-great bird. Or, in the case of one of my previous orders, a group of cockerels where 60% couldn't walk properly because of conformation defects by the time they were 4 months old. So reaching towards the SOP isn't arbitrary; it's a guide for preserving the unique characteristics of each unique breed. Without it as a signpost for consistency, breeds would drift around, dictated by fluctuating fashion, until the XYZ breed of 2040 would have little resemblance to the XYZ breed of 1940, and for all practical purposes many great breeds would be lost to history.

 

[chambe94]

This is a really old thread.

We already show Jersey Giants and are working on Dark Cornish bantams.

My Legbars are being bred to the proposed SOP, because that is what sells right now. My Isbars are being selected for production and egg color ( because the lines that fit the purest description are sickly, with low fertility, and low egg production). That was more the question I was asking, but I got it figured out

I do have to say though, that if you honestly believe breeding to the standard for showing produces healthier birds, you are deluding yourself. Which birds are more fertile and lay more eggs, heritage RIR or production RIR? If the standard selects for the best layers, wouldn't the production birds look more like it?

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the look of a good show bird. My Jerseys are ridiculous, and they make me smile every time I see them. Same with the Cornish. But if I was going to be stuck on a desert island with a small flock of chickens to keep me alive, it wouldn't be the show stock!

There is a place for both kinds of birds in the world, they just fulfill very different roles ( like a show German Shepherd vs. a working bred one)