Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[chisNchickens]

No, I did not forget Black. Black in Silkies is not genetically the same as Black in almost every other breed. Silkie Black is based on a different base with melanizers (E^R or others)- and every other black breed that I know of is based on Extended Black - totally different base. Oh good grief. Seriously? Who would have thought chicken genetics would be so complicated! I already have two other species' genetics in my poor brain and I honestly don't know that I have room for more!! lol I have been seeing some Silkie chicks on here that appear to have the Extended Black base - so it is coming. Where it is coming from I don't know. However - 99% of the Black Silkie chicks that I see out there are not based on Extended Black. Ok then here's a question..is "pure" black genetically different than bbs black or is it just black that has been bred back to only black for many generations?

Blue is not the same either. Not only being based on the wrong base (the same as Black above) but some lack lacing and some lack the darker head. My "Blue" birds are not correct. Some are closer to correct. Some are based on Partridge bases! So Black and Blue are not included in those colors that genetically match other breed's colors.

And Suze's Partridges do not appear genetically Partridge to me. None of the Silkies I have ever seen do. Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE her Partridges - but they are not PARTRIDGE - they are Partridge Silkies. Please go look at Partridges in every other breed. The front of the girls is not a solid color and it is not lighter than the back. The back of the birds is not black or darker than the front The whole bird is one even color (although I have seen some Partridges with black "collars" around their necks) - not divided like the Silkies are. Patterning on the bird does not make it a Partridge. In Silkies it might - but in the rest of the breeds it does not. I am sorry but neither one of your birds looks genetically Partridge to me.
Well to me Suze's look much closer than what I have. I do have partridge rocks, and honestly a true partridge silkie would not interest me, which is why I said I am rethinking my partridge pen. So then who is the genius that decided that we DO have partridge silkies and standardized it? lol
Find me a Partridge Silkie Hen that looks like THIS:

(not the best picture, I know - but I didn't want to borrow somebody elses - this is my PWB Rear PWB is lighter than her daughter in front. If you want to see good pictures of real Partridge in other breeds go look on Feathersite)


Suse says there are genetically correct Partridge Silkies out there. I have not ever seen a picture of one. Perhaps they come from the dark Partridge breedings and people think they are too dark and cross them with the light birds to get back to the light gold, light front, light brown etc. and loose the proper base and genetics again, I don't know. I want to believe they exist, and I can get some. I have other similar unsupported beliefs.. but I am not holding my breath for proof...

Perhaps I need to add Mahogany to my pair - they are evenly colored - mostly

Just much too light for proper Partridge and with that light front/darker rear...
I assume by mahogany you mean the red silkie that is often used with buff?
All of this is just convincing me further that silkies are not chickens at all;-)

 

[chisNchickens]

I should have split that last paragraph into two.

The point of the first half of it is that with silkied feathers, we can't see whether we are selecting for proper penciling or not. With normal feathers, we can see the pattern, and whether it is correct or needs to be improved, or if it is even penciling at all, but not when they are shredded.

Second half of the paragraph is wishing there was a good book or chart with chick down patterns. There are lots of generalized photos and/or drawings, but what I would like to see is one that shows, for example, e+ and e^b chicks (both have chipmunk stripes) side by side and points out the differences. And I'd like to see that with both drawings of the perfectly marked chicks, as well as photos that take into account that perfect is never really achieved. Now add in all the other genes that you'd like to be able to identify in chick down, and THAT is the book I'd like to see.

I agree. A book such as that would be tremendously helpful especially to chicken color genetics dummies such as myself. Over the years I have studied rat genetics, dog genetics, and most recently ball python genetics. I just don't have enough room in my poor old brain!

 

[chisNchickens]

*blush* I love it when people talk about me like this behind my back

You are sweet. Thank you!

You deserve it!

 

[chisNchickens]

SHE'S GETTING BETTER!!!!!!

So sorry - this genetics discussion just got really interesting. So good to hear she is getting better!!!

 

[Jharper]

So sorry - this genetics discussion just got really interesting.  So good to hear she is getting better!!!

We are just getting the mucus off around her eye.

 

[chisNchickens]

We are just getting the mucus off around her eye.

I believe I missed it - what is it that she has??

 

[Pozees]

Sonoran I have to travel to Tempe Monday for a class Tuesday through Friday, what weather should I pack for? Here it's been chilly at night (36 last night) and 60s to 70s daytime high, is it much warmer there?

Sorry, I know off topic. To bring back to topic, and on the subject of Partridge - I purchased two Partridge hens last year, one sold as a "Light Partridge" which is a bit lighter than the one you posted earlier, and one sold as a "Dark Partridge" - she is very dark, with gold or light brown feathers on her wings and breast. They are raising chicks right now so I don't have a good picture of them but when they're done I will get some and post here. I am curious about what folks here think. I originally intended them for brooding purposes only, but this breed has captured my heart, as has happened to so many others once they have them.

For me, this color in Silkies is difficult to understand, didn't really plan to breed for that color, and still don't know that I will.

They and two Black hens are with a Blue Cock who is not great quality (type) right now, but he is extremely healthy, vigorous, and fertile, and those traits have value - greater even than I once thought, as I have had 25 truly beautiful Speckled Sussex completely wiped out by Marek's, a couple of RIR died from it as well. I also recently lost that beautiful Splash Cockerel I posted a pic of a few weeks ago. Just dead in the pen one day - a hatchmate was found dead in pen a few weeks prior to that. The un-typey Silkie cock, his hens, and all their offspring, remain healthy as one could want. I had originally intended to drop him from the breeding pens and replace him, but that was with the thought that type was my main concern. Health/vigor just ascended to top spot. Always was, I guess, just didn't realize I needed to concentrate on working on that ahead of type.

Learning, learning, and learning some more. Some things the hard way.

 

[Jharper]

I believe I missed it - what is it that she has??

A lot if people said MG.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote:
No, "Pure Black" in Silkies is not genetically different from B/B/S breedings. None of them appear based on Extended Black - they are mixed bases with lots of melanizers to make them black. Charcoal is probably one of them - for the nice black head. There are a lot more - both for the feathers and for the skin. But if you breed Black to Black and do not mix in the blue you may get doubled copies of the melanizers for a blacker black - and its possible to get very nice Black birds if you can get a doubled E^R base instead of the mixed bases. In other words - remove any chicks that look like chipmunks or are lighter on the bottom from your breeding program. Use only extremely black chicks. No lighter toes - no lighter feathers - that chick has all the melanizers to make a very dark solid black. However - now that I have been seeing Silkie chicks that ARE based on E - perhaps that is the way to get really black blacks.

I like the Partridge color in other birds, its what drew me to investigate Partridge Silkies - but I do like the Silkie version to be slightly lighter than the dark ones. On Silkied feathers the differences between the dark red and the black don't show up quite as well. Still, I prefer the richer colored Partridge girls that are colored all over to the black with gold overlay patterned birds or the washed out Buff versions. Personal preferences, as you said. I am not enamored of my PWB boy's colors for the Silkies - it would look almost all black on Silkies. But if that gives me correctly colored girls..

I don't know where the Mahogany came from that Sonoran found .. and I haven't seen a genetically Red Silkie in a long time. Red carries Mahogany,. But once again we have Silkie birds with mixed genetics being named a color because that's what they sort of look like. I have some Buffs that have autosomnal red now ( I crossed Buff and Partridge) - very nice and dark overlay over the Buff. Somebody said it looked like a Red - no - it isn't. I don't think he carries Mahogany, so I doubt the "Red" birds with autosomnal red would work. I asked Sonoran on another thread if a Partridge boy I have here could carry Mahogany, I am hoping for a positive reply

Quote: Please get it tested. We can't diagnose over the internet. You need to know exactly what you are dealing with.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Sonoran I have to travel to Tempe Monday for a class Tuesday through Friday, what weather should I pack for? Here it's been chilly at night (36 last night) and 60s to 70s daytime high, is it much warmer there?

Sorry, I know off topic. To bring back to topic, and on the subject of Partridge - I purchased two Partridge hens last year, one sold as a "Light Partridge" which is a bit lighter than the one you posted earlier, and one sold as a "Dark Partridge" - she is very dark, with gold or light brown feathers on her wings and breast. They are raising chicks right now so I don't have a good picture of them but when they're done I will get some and post here. I am curious about what folks here think. I originally intended them for brooding purposes only, but this breed has captured my heart, as has happened to so many others once they have them.

For me, this color in Silkies is difficult to understand, didn't really plan to breed for that color, and still don't know that I will.

They and two Black hens are with a Blue Cock who is not great quality (type) right now, but he is extremely healthy, vigorous, and fertile, and those traits have value - greater even than I once thought, as I have had 25 truly beautiful Speckled Sussex completely wiped out by Marek's, a couple of RIR died from it as well. I also recently lost that beautiful Splash Cockerel I posted a pic of a few weeks ago. Just dead in the pen one day - a hatchmate was found dead in pen a few weeks prior to that. The un-typey Silkie cock, his hens, and all their offspring, remain healthy as one could want. I had originally intended to drop him from the breeding pens and replace him, but that was with the thought that type was my main concern. Health/vigor just ascended to top spot. Always was, I guess, just didn't realize I needed to concentrate on working on that ahead of type.

Learning, learning, and learning some more. Some things the hard way.

Partridge is not a simple color - and, as stated above - everything that isn't easily identified is thrown and bred into Partridge. I love that color so I am going to try to get it closer to "correct" but I would hope that doesn't take away other people's enjoyment of the birds they have. That is not my intentions at all. All Silkies are wonderful! They captured my heart as well, just see my signature line...

I also value the traits of health, vigor and resistance to Mareks over purely type as well, and I add in fertility, egg laying and broody ability as well - if you can keep what makes him healthy and bring it into the better type girls then that sounds like a really good plan! I have a not-so-great type Cock who has those attributes above and who I am using over a very typey hen - his first generation offspring are very typey already, as well as being healthy and active. Possibly too active - does anybody need a nice boy? Or two?

I am so sorry about your loss of the other birds, my Speckled Sussex are just growing up but they are great tempered birds and I would be very sorry to loose them. I am also sorry about your Splash boy - he was really nice.