Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[Jharper]

No, "Pure Black" in Silkies is not genetically different from B/B/S breedings. None of them appear based on Extended Black - they are mixed bases with lots of melanizers to make them black.  Charcoal is probably one of them - for the nice black head.  There are a lot more - both for the feathers and for the skin.  But if you breed Black to Black and do not mix in the blue you may get doubled copies of the melanizers for a blacker black - and its possible to get very nice Black birds if you can get a doubled E^R base instead of the mixed bases.  In other words - remove any chicks that look like chipmunks or are lighter on the bottom from your breeding program.  Use only extremely black chicks.  No lighter  toes - no lighter feathers - that chick has all the melanizers to make a very dark solid black.  However - now that I have been seeing Silkie chicks that ARE based on E - perhaps that is the way to get really black blacks.

I like the Partridge color in other birds, its what drew me to investigate Partridge Silkies - but I do like the Silkie version to be slightly lighter than the dark ones.  On Silkied feathers the differences between the dark red and the black don't show up quite as well.  Still, I prefer the richer colored Partridge girls that are colored all over to the black with gold overlay patterned birds or the washed out Buff versions.  Personal preferences, as you said.  I am not enamored of my PWB boy's colors for the Silkies - it would look almost all black on Silkies.  But if that gives me correctly colored girls..

I don't know where the Mahogany came from that Sonoran found .. and I haven't seen a genetically Red Silkie in a long time.  Red carries Mahogany,.  But once again we have Silkie birds with mixed genetics being named a color because that's what they sort of look like.  I have some Buffs that have autosomnal red now ( I crossed Buff and Partridge) - very nice and dark overlay over the Buff. Somebody said it looked like a Red - no - it isn't.  I don't think he carries Mahogany, so I doubt the "Red" birds with autosomnal red would work.  I asked Sonoran on another thread if a Partridge boy I have here could carry Mahogany, I am hoping for a positive reply

Please get it tested.  We can't diagnose over the internet.  You need to know exactly what you are dealing with.

There's nobody around me to do it other than the guy that probably gave it to her.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote: Huh. Did you contact the FFA leader? I know there has to be a way to get it tested, and once you KNOW what you are dealing with you can decide how to treat it and what the future holds. Guessing (whether for the worst or the best) is not the best option. If you have to use the guy that you think infected your birds I would not mention that to him.. just that you want your birds tested because you are concerned - no specific details.

Are the blood tests that you brought your birds in to get available for you to see? Do you know what they were testing for? Can you get the results of other applicants tests? What is the procedure for the information on those tests? If any birds show positive on a contagious disease are all applicants informed? All things I would ask when you find somebody to talk to - whether from the show or from the state testing agency. If your original tests came back negative and the new tests come back positive - that means you got it between those times - and yes, I suspect while being tested... but it would require another bird to test positive for whatever it was that was tested before your birds.

Can you take a sample of her blood and send it off somewhere? Does the state have programs that will help diagnose illnesses? We have a program in CA that allows us to take deceased birds in for necropsy - no charge. Its about an hour from me, but they also accept UPSed birds, you can use their UPS number and get their discount and they charge you when they return the findings. I hope you can find something like that around you.

to you, this is all chicken owners' worst nightmare and I know its very hard to go through. We are here to support you and help you through this if you need us - please don't forget that. I am very glad she is getting better, and I hope she pulls through for you.

 

[Jharper]

Huh.  Did you contact the FFA leader?  I know there has to be a way to get it tested, and once you KNOW what you are dealing with you can decide how to treat it and what the future holds.  Guessing (whether for the worst or the best) is not the best option.  If you have to use the guy that you think infected your birds I would not mention that to him.. just that you want your birds tested because you are concerned - no specific details.

Are the blood tests that you brought your birds in to get available for you to see?  Do you know what they were testing for?  Can you get the results of other applicants tests?  What is the procedure for the information on those tests?  If any birds show positive on a contagious disease are all applicants informed? All things I would ask when you find somebody to talk to - whether from the show or from the state testing agency.  If your original tests came back negative and the new tests come back positive - that means you got it between those times - and yes, I suspect while being tested... but it would require another bird to test positive for whatever it was that was tested before your birds.

Can you take a sample of her blood and send it off somewhere?  Does the state have programs that will help diagnose illnesses?  We have a program in CA that allows us to take deceased birds in for necropsy - no charge.  Its about an hour from me, but they also accept UPSed birds, you can use their UPS number and get their discount and they charge you when they return the findings.  I hope you can find something like that around you.

to you, this is all chicken owners' worst nightmare and I know its very hard to go through.  We are here to support you and help you through this if you need us - please don't forget that.  I am very glad she is getting better, and I hope she pulls through for you.

Do you think they will take stuff in like that since the gov. is shutdown, and thanks! I am going to contact them tomorrow.

 

[chisNchickens]

No, "Pure Black" in Silkies is not genetically different from B/B/S breedings. None of them appear based on Extended Black - they are mixed bases with lots of melanizers to make them black. Charcoal is probably one of them - for the nice black head. There are a lot more - both for the feathers and for the skin. But if you breed Black to Black and do not mix in the blue you may get doubled copies of the melanizers for a blacker black - and its possible to get very nice Black birds if you can get a doubled E^R base instead of the mixed bases. In other words - remove any chicks that look like chipmunks or are lighter on the bottom from your breeding program. Use only extremely black chicks. No lighter toes - no lighter feathers - that chick has all the melanizers to make a very dark solid black. However - now that I have been seeing Silkie chicks that ARE based on E - perhaps that is the way to get really black blacks.

I like the Partridge color in other birds, its what drew me to investigate Partridge Silkies - but I do like the Silkie version to be slightly lighter than the dark ones. On Silkied feathers the differences between the dark red and the black don't show up quite as well. Still, I prefer the richer colored Partridge girls that are colored all over to the black with gold overlay patterned birds or the washed out Buff versions. Personal preferences, as you said. I am not enamored of my PWB boy's colors for the Silkies - it would look almost all black on Silkies. But if that gives me correctly colored girls..

I don't know where the Mahogany came from that Sonoran found .. and I haven't seen a genetically Red Silkie in a long time. Red carries Mahogany,. But once again we have Silkie birds with mixed genetics being named a color because that's what they sort of look like. I have some Buffs that have autosomnal red now ( I crossed Buff and Partridge) - very nice and dark overlay over the Buff. Somebody said it looked like a Red - no - it isn't. I don't think he carries Mahogany, so I doubt the "Red" birds with autosomnal red would work. I asked Sonoran on another thread if a Partridge boy I have here could carry Mahogany, I am hoping for a positive reply

Thanks, I was not sure about the black. The blacks I bought are ten generations pure. When I said that I thought all black was capable of throwing blue I was told that is not correct. So I assume my "pure" blacks will never throw blue. Again, lots of new info to learn now that I have more than whites.

 

[ChickNmamma]

Quote:
Your Blacks will never throw blue. They require the Blue gene - and Black is the absence of the Blue gene. If you add a Blue or a Splash they will produce Blue. Some people have had very dark blues and thought they were Black - that is when they can surprise you and produce Blue - and if crossed again will produce Splash. If yours are 10 generations and never produced Blue then you can be pretty sure they won't ever produce Blue.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:

Yes and no. Black from a BBS pen is black (lacking the blue dlution gene), but it may well lack melanizers that are selected for in an all-black pen (by selecting the blackest birds as breeders). Also, in either case, the particular e-allele makes a difference. Technically, there is nothing uch as a "pure black." As in there is no single black gene, with its alternative allele being not-black. All the e-alleles deal with black pigment, but none are an alternative to black.

Blue is not the same either. Not only being based on the wrong base (the same as Black above) but some lack lacing and some lack the darker head. My "Blue" birds are not correct. Some are closer to correct. Some are based on Partridge bases! So Black and Blue are not included in those colors that genetically match other breed's colors.

And Suze's Partridges do not appear genetically Partridge to me. None of the Silkies I have ever seen do. Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE her Partridges - but they are not PARTRIDGE - they are Partridge Silkies. Please go look at Partridges in every other breed. The front of the girls is not a solid color and it is not lighter than the back. The back of the birds is not black or darker than the front The whole bird is one even color (although I have seen some Partridges with black "collars" around their necks) - not divided like the Silkies are. Patterning on the bird does not make it a Partridge. In Silkies it might - but in the rest of the breeds it does not. I am sorry but neither one of your birds looks genetically Partridge to me.
Well to me Suze's look much closer than what I have. I do have partridge rocks, and honestly a true partridge silkie would not interest me, which is why I said I am rethinking my partridge pen. So then who is the genius that decided that we DO have partridge silkies and standardized it? lol
Find me a Partridge Silkie Hen that looks like THIS:

(not the best picture, I know - but I didn't want to borrow somebody elses - this is my PWB Rear PWB is lighter than her daughter in front. If you want to see good pictures of real Partridge in other breeds go look on Feathersite)


Suse says there are genetically correct Partridge Silkies out there. I have not ever seen a picture of one. Perhaps they come from the dark Partridge breedings and people think they are too dark and cross them with the light birds to get back to the light gold, light front, light brown etc. and loose the proper base and genetics again, I don't know. I want to believe they exist, and I can get some. I have other similar unsupported beliefs.. but I am not holding my breath for proof...

Perhaps I need to add Mahogany to my pair - they are evenly colored - mostly

Just much too light for proper Partridge and with that light front/darker rear...
I assume by mahogany you mean the red silkie that is often used with buff?

Mahogany is a gene, and is fairly rare in silkies. Most red silkies do not have it. Look at exhibition rhode island reds to see mahogany: a red so intense it is almost black.

All of this is just convincing me further that silkies are not chickens at all;-)

All chicken have the same complicated genetics. The only think unique about silkies is the shredded feathers that prevent seeing patterns on their feathers

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Sonoran I have to travel to Tempe Monday for a class Tuesday through Friday, what weather should I pack for? Here it's been chilly at night (36 last night) and 60s to 70s daytime high, is it much warmer there?

Sorry, I know off topic. To bring back to topic, and on the subject of Partridge - I purchased two Partridge hens last year, one sold as a "Light Partridge" which is a bit lighter than the one you posted earlier, and one sold as a "Dark Partridge" - she is very dark, with gold or light brown feathers on her wings and breast. They are raising chicks right now so I don't have a good picture of them but when they're done I will get some and post here. I am curious about what folks here think. I originally intended them for brooding purposes only, but this breed has captured my heart, as has happened to so many others once they have them.

For me, this color in Silkies is difficult to understand, didn't really plan to breed for that color, and still don't know that I will.

They and two Black hens are with a Blue Cock who is not great quality (type) right now, but he is extremely healthy, vigorous, and fertile, and those traits have value - greater even than I once thought, as I have had 25 truly beautiful Speckled Sussex completely wiped out by Marek's, a couple of RIR died from it as well. I also recently lost that beautiful Splash Cockerel I posted a pic of a few weeks ago. Just dead in the pen one day - a hatchmate was found dead in pen a few weeks prior to that. The un-typey Silkie cock, his hens, and all their offspring, remain healthy as one could want. I had originally intended to drop him from the breeding pens and replace him, but that was with the thought that type was my main concern. Health/vigor just ascended to top spot. Always was, I guess, just didn't realize I needed to concentrate on working on that ahead of type.

Learning, learning, and learning some more. Some things the hard way.

Just found this, so I can't help with packing choices. We are having days in the 70's to 90's; nights go down to 50's Dressing in layers helps--start off with several, and as the day warms up, start shedding them. Then add back as evening wears on.

I do think you are right that sometimes we get a wake up call on what is important in our breeding choices. I would suggest that you think about WHY these birds are healthier than your others. Did you do anything different in raising them? How about wherever they came from versus the others who you lost, and whatever differences THOSE breeders practiced? There ARE healthy silkies out there of good type, so don;t be discouraged.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:
No, "Pure Black" in Silkies is not genetically different from B/B/S breedings. None of them appear based on Extended Black - they are mixed bases with lots of melanizers to make them black. Charcoal is probably one of them - for the nice black head. There are a lot more - both for the feathers and for the skin. But if you breed Black to Black and do not mix in the blue you may get doubled copies of the melanizers for a blacker black - and its possible to get very nice Black birds if you can get a doubled E^R base instead of the mixed bases. In other words - remove any chicks that look like chipmunks or are lighter on the bottom from your breeding program. Use only extremely black chicks. No lighter toes - no lighter feathers - that chick has all the melanizers to make a very dark solid black. However - now that I have been seeing Silkie chicks that ARE based on E - perhaps that is the way to get really black blacks.

I like the Partridge color in other birds, its what drew me to investigate Partridge Silkies - but I do like the Silkie version to be slightly lighter than the dark ones. On Silkied feathers the differences between the dark red and the black don't show up quite as well. Still, I prefer the richer colored Partridge girls that are colored all over to the black with gold overlay patterned birds or the washed out Buff versions. Personal preferences, as you said. I am not enamored of my PWB boy's colors for the Silkies - it would look almost all black on Silkies. But if that gives me correctly colored girls..

I don't know where the Mahogany came from that Sonoran found .. and I haven't seen a genetically Red Silkie in a long time. Red carries Mahogany,. But once again we have Silkie birds with mixed genetics being named a color because that's what they sort of look like. I have some Buffs that have autosomnal red now ( I crossed Buff and Partridge) - very nice and dark overlay over the Buff. Somebody said it looked like a Red - no - it isn't. I don't think he carries Mahogany, so I doubt the "Red" birds with autosomnal red would work. I asked Sonoran on another thread if a Partridge boy I have here could carry Mahogany, I am hoping for a positive reply

I don't know the why of it, but several years ago back when Dr Okimoto posted on The Coop regularly, he opined that the best exhibition black silkies were based upon E^R, not E. I've seen the post, but that was before I was there more than rarely, or knew enough to ask "WHY?" But for some reason, he thought that E^R birds would make better exhibition blacks.

Several years ago, a friend gave me a blue silkie X golden phoenix, who had RED, RED, RED. I bred him to my partridge, and keep breeding in the birds with red. This is Flaime--typewise, lacking a lot, but LOOK at that red, and realize it was even deeper/brighter than these untouched photos show:







I see a lot of folks call a dark buff red. It isn't; not even close. You have to look at reds in other breeds, or European red silkies as imported by Jerry Schnedecker to see what red silkies really are/should be.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: Chedck with your state vet. Most states with a sizable poultry industry do testing for very low cost, or even free.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: The FEDERAL government is partially shut down. There is no reason that STATE governments would be shut down as well.