Silkie breeding, genetics & showing

[peepblessed]

What is the acceptable weight range for silkies? I have one that is quite small and frail feeling, and one that is very solid.

•Cocks: 36 oz
•Hens: 32 oz
•Cockerels: 32 oz
•Pullets: 28 oz

My understanding is that 20% over or under is acceptable.

 

[aoxa]

I am leaning towards that conclusion as well after asking several people and trying to read as much as I could find on it. My bird has gotten no worse, and it's not a matter of filing her beak or anything of the sort. She has perfect alignment.... it's just twisted to the side. But what I did discover is that it pops up enough in all breeds, that it's a more common defect than I imagined. It's certainly not limited to silkie hatchings. ETA-- I still have her, but I have already found her a home where the person just wants her as a broody.

I have the same thing in one of my pullets, but she was broody hatched/raised, so how would that come about?

 

[Me & Jack]

I have the same thing in one of my pullets, but she was broody hatched/raised, so how would that come about?

Here's a quote about crooked beak that may answer your question.

"The most common kind of crooked beak in older chickens is probably that which develops between 3 and 8 weeks of age in chicks which were normal at hatching. The lower beak is unaffected except that,since it is not used for pecking, the end is not worn down as much as in normal fowls and one side is worn more than the other. At maturity the tip of the upper beak tends to curl downward. In the skulls of affected birds there is a marked asymmetry of the maxillae, nasals, and pre-maxillae, which is probably responsible for the condition of the beak. Birds with the upper beak straight but much shortened are sometimes found in families showing crooked beaks, and the two forms are probably genetically identical.

Genetics. This type of crooked beak is hereditary, but the manifestation of the character is so irregular that a definite genetic basis for it is as yet unknown. In extensive studies by Landauer (1938) the condition was clearly recessive to the normal, but no Mendelian ratios were observed. Some matings of normal parents produced only a single cross-beak in 21, 30, and 48 chicks. From four matings of cross-beaked birds inter se the ratio in the progeny was 91 normal: 53 cross-beaked. Apparently only a small proportion of the birds homozygous for crooked beak are visibly affected. Mercier and Poisson (1925) suggest that in their stock the character was even manifested by heterozygotes. Birds with crooked beaks survive, especially if the beaks are trimmed and if the feed is supplied in a deep hopper. The variation in which the upper beak is straight but shortened is more likely to be fatal before maturity, because of the difficulty in feeding." (http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/crookedbeaks.htm)

Bottom line: probably best not to breed this bird.

 

[aoxa]

Here's a quote about crooked beak that may answer your question. "The most common kind of crooked beak in older chickens is probably that which develops between 3 and 8 weeks of age in chicks which were normal at hatching. The lower beak is unaffected except that,since it is not used for pecking, the end is not worn down as much as in normal fowls and one side is worn more than the other. At maturity the tip of the upper beak tends to curl downward. In the skulls of affected birds there is a marked asymmetry of the maxillae, nasals, and pre-maxillae, which is probably responsible for the condition of the beak. Birds with the upper beak straight but much shortened are sometimes found in families showing crooked beaks, and the two forms are probably genetically identical. Genetics. This type of crooked beak is hereditary, but the manifestation of the character is so irregular that a definite genetic basis for it is as yet unknown. In extensive studies by Landauer (1938) the condition was clearly recessive to the normal, but no Mendelian ratios were observed. Some matings of normal parents produced only a single cross-beak in 21, 30, and 48 chicks. From four matings of cross-beaked birds inter se the ratio in the progeny was 91 normal: 53 cross-beaked. Apparently only a small proportion of the birds homozygous for crooked beak are visibly affected. Mercier and Poisson (1925) suggest that in their stock the character was even manifested by heterozygotes. Birds with crooked beaks survive, especially if the beaks are trimmed and if the feed is supplied in a deep hopper. The variation in which the upper beak is straight but shortened is more likely to be fatal before maturity, because of the difficulty in feeding." (http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/crookedbeaks.htm) Bottom line: probably best not to breed this bird.

I wasn't planning on breeding her She is from a line of REALLY mega broody silkies. I will most likely just use her for that. She does really well with the LF birds, so doesn't need to stay in the coop. Though her mother has a perfect beak, and so do all her siblings - so - that chick was given to me when I went to pick up a broody hen. It was his last silkie and he didn't plan on having anymore. Maybe he hatched it himself, but I think he said it belonged to the broody. Could be wrong. Oh and I have bred another hen with an off centred beak, and all her chicks are completely normal.

So this form is deadly? It hasn't worsened at all since I got her @ 7 weeks and she is growing just fine. I believe the breeder was crossing brother and sister. Could this be a cause?

 

[Hawkeye95]

I have the same thing in one of my pullets, but she was broody hatched/raised, so how would that come about?

It's a condition that manifests while growing in the egg. So if it is genetic or "environmental" as some people might argue, it would still have occurred before hatch. But here's the thing--- a cross beak and a twisted beak won't show up until about 6-8 weeks of age. So, the chick will look completely normal until then. But like Janine's excerpt said-- the entire skull is effected, not just the beak. So the beak will start to grow in that direction. A cross beak is not the same thing, BTW-- a cross beak is when the top and lower beak does not align up, but they cross. A twist -- and I got this word from another study that was done and darned if I can find it now!-- is describing what is happening here. But because we can't know if this genetic or not, breeding a bird with any beak issues would just be irresponsible. It's a real shame, your bird is beautiful looking. I'd just pet her out to someone and never look back. Now I'm going to go try to hunt down that study that identified this type of beak issue... LOL But like I said before, I'm thinking it must be on the more common side since I bred my own twist and I've seen many people wind up with a bird in this condition. But it's not limited to silkies.

 

[Hawkeye95]

I wasn't planning on breeding her

She is from a line of REALLY mega broody silkies. I will most likely just use her for that. She does really well with the LF birds, so doesn't need to stay in the coop. Though her mother has a perfect beak, and so do all her siblings - so

- that chick was given to me when I went to pick up a broody hen. It was his last silkie and he didn't plan on having anymore. Maybe he hatched it himself, but I think he said it belonged to the broody. Could be wrong.
Oh and I have bred another hen with an off centred beak, and all her chicks are completely normal.

So this form is deadly? It hasn't worsened at all since I got her @ 7 weeks and she is growing just fine.
I believe the breeder was crossing brother and sister. Could this be a cause?

No, it's not deadly. It would only be deadly if she could not eat and drink from a severe twist or cross. She should be just fine. I doubt the beak is the result of breeding siblings. That is called Line Breeding. A lot of breeders do it. I do it to some extent-- but not really on purpose, I just try to breed the best together and I do try to bring in fresh blood by buying eggs each year. But, there have been many studies done on Line Breeding and it looks to be you could technically (of course, there are always variances to this) line breed for a good 10 years without much repercussion. But when you do that, you risk curved spines, wry tail, and other skeletal and muscular issues. But breeding siblings to each other once or twice... doubtful that it would be an issue. Although, certainly no reason to entirely rule it out. But I've not seen anything that would indicate that as being a factor for this condition.

Here is a picture on BYC--- This would be a beak that might kill the bird. But even so, this looks to be an adult bird, so they must have figured out some way to feed and water her. And this is a cross, not what we are really talking about.

 

[aoxa]

It's a condition that manifests while growing in the egg. So if it is genetic or "environmental" as some people might argue, it would still have occurred before hatch. But here's the thing--- a cross beak and a twisted beak won't show up until about 6-8 weeks of age. So, the chick will look completely normal until then. But like Janine's excerpt said-- the entire skull is effected, not just the beak. So the beak will start to grow in that direction. A cross beak is not the same thing, BTW-- a cross beak is when the top and lower beak does not align up, but they cross. A twist -- and I got this word from another study that was done and darned if I can find it now!-- is describing what is happening here. But because we can't know if this genetic or not, breeding a bird with any beak issues would just be irresponsible. It's a real shame, your bird is beautiful looking. I'd just pet her out to someone and never look back. Now I'm going to go try to hunt down that study that identified this type of beak issue... LOL But like I said before, I'm thinking it must be on the more common side since I bred my own twist and I've seen many people wind up with a bird in this condition. But it's not limited to silkies.

The only two birds that have had this (that I own) are from a specific hen with a specific rooster. I have the rooster (who is the brother of the hen who these chicks belong to, as well as their father) separated and using him in a sizzle project. I am using the mother with a cock of an entirely different line. I'll let you know if anything pops up. Those two above are sisters. Here are some of the older crooked beaks offspring (unrelated roo)

And I have yet to actually get the same issue when crossing her to the unrelated roo (I have many more chicks that are fine, but these are the only head-on pictures I can find). Right now I only have 3 laying silkie hens. The crook-beak throws the best ones. Ah well. If she does start throwing chicks like that, I would stop using her. I don't sell chicks at all. At least not yet. I grow them all out myself.

 

[aoxa]

No, it's not deadly.  It would only be deadly if she could not eat and drink from a severe twist or cross.  She should be just fine.  I doubt the beak is the result of breeding siblings.  That is called Line Breeding.  A lot of breeders do it.  I do it to some extent-- but not really on purpose, I just try to breed the best together and I do try to bring in fresh blood by buying eggs each year.  But, there have been many studies done on Line Breeding and it looks to be you could technically (of course, there are always variances to this) line breed for a good 10 years without much repercussion. But when you do that, you risk curved spines, wry tail, and other skeletal and muscular issues.  But breeding siblings to each other once or twice... doubtful that it would be an issue.  Although, certainly no reason to entirely rule it out.  But I've not seen anything that would indicate that as being a factor for this condition.

Here is a picture on BYC---  This would be a beak that might kill the bird.  But even so, this looks to be an adult bird, so they must have figured out some way to feed and water her.  And this is a cross, not what we are really talking about.  

Line breeding is father + daughter or mother + son from what I've read :/

I thought brother + sister is inbreeding?

 

[Me & Jack]

Line breeding is father + daughter or mother + son from what I've read

I thought brother + sister is inbreeding?

I agree that line breeding is probably meant only to refer to the breeding of a sire or dam to its best offspring, where as inbreeding can refer to any breeding of closely related birds (including mother/son and father/daughter, as well as siblings).

 

[aoxa]

I agree that line breeding is probably meant only to refer to the breeding of a sire or dam to its best offspring, where as inbreeding can refer to any breeding of closely related birds (including mother/son and father/daughter, as well as siblings).

Thanks for clearing that up