Silkie Pullet is bone thin, diarrhea, weak!

[Kiki]

Furaltadone

that one is not in this book.

 

[fruitbrute]

So while my above proof is from a Vet book it is only referring to using Amprolium to treat.
But since the OP is really not even treating with it I guess it wouldn't matter.

BUT I too like proof from a credible source and there is not any to my knowledge about using those two specific drugs to treat Cocci.

But I'm not using amprolium at the moment, I'm using two drugs which have nothing to do with thiamine -

If you need a textbook to believe the science I am relaying to you, check out Veterinary Parasitology by Taylor, Coop, & Wall. Page 322. Lots of info on the use of nitroimidazoles and nitrofurans (and why they aren't generally used in Poultry for human consumption anymore - not because of efficacy, as they are considered highly effective by way of DNA and RNA disruption, but because of concerns of mutagenicity.) They are still widley used in pigeons and other birds however - and again, all of this is sort of a moot point as

1. It's what I had on hand (for pigeons), so it's what I used in an emergency.

2. It seems to be working just fine, and while I'm in no way saying your suggestions aren't BETTER for use in Poultry, in fact I agree with you that Corid is a more preferred drug in treating Cocci, though it's efficacy is only considered moderate.

Also: while I disagree about not using vitamins in such a compromised dying bird being treated with Furaltadone and Ronidazole (which targets DNA/RNA and has nothing to do with vitamin synthesis), I DO agree that added vitamins would not be advised for a healthy-seeming flock being treated (either as diagnosed or as preventative care) with Corid/Amorolium based on the very different way that drugs works as a coccidiostat. Amprolium works by blocking thiamine uptake and preventing carbohydrate synthesis in the coccidian Protozoa - this is not how Ronidazole works.

Hope this helps clarify things and explains them a little better. I was a biology major in college, so forgive me if I get a little nerdy scientific on things. I do appreciate your advice, experience and help.

 

[Kiki]

But I'm not using amprolium at the moment, I'm using two drugs which have nothing to do with thiamine -

If you need a textbook to believe the science I am relaying to you, check out Veterinary Parasitology by Taylor, Coop, & Wall. Page 322. Lots of info on the use of nitroimidazoles and nitrofurans (and why they aren't generally used in Poultry for human consumption anymore - not because of efficacy, as they are considered highly effective by way of DNA and RNA disruption, but because of concerns of mutagenicity.) They are still widley used in pigeons and other birds however - and again, all of this is sort of a moot point as

1. It's what I had on hand (for pigeons), so it's what I used in an emergency.

2. It seems to be working just fine, and while I'm in no way saying your suggestions aren't BETTER for use in Poultry, in fact I agree with you that Corid is a more preferred drug in treating Cocci, though it's efficacy is only considered moderate.

Also: while I disagree about not using vitamins in such a compromised dying bird being treated with Furaltadone and Ronidazole (which targets DNA/RNA and has nothing to do with vitamin synthesis), I DO agree that added vitamins would not be advised for a healthy-seeming flock being treated (either as diagnosed or as preventative care) with Corid/Amorolium based on the very different way that drugs works as a coccidiostat. Amprolium works by blocking thiamine uptake and preventing carbohydrate synthesis in the coccidian Protozoa - this is not how Ronidazole works.

Hope this helps clarify things and explains them a little better. I was a biology major in college, so forgive me if I get a little nerdy scientific on things. I do appreciate your advice, experience and help.

My whole point was if treating for Cocci to not use vitamins.
But I was also assuming you were using Corid to treat for the Cocci since that is what is most common used, because it works. AND since you mentioned getting some earlier in this thread.

I still do not think what you are using to treat your bird will treat Cocci, based on what I just read about the one "R" drug and I could not find the other in my particular book but the online google search I preformed mentioned it was for something else completely.

I am simply trying to tell you what is proven to work for COCCI in chickens because you mention she was showing signs of having a Cocci overload.

I hope she continues to get better for you.

You really should skip all the guessing and have her poop tested by a vet.
It's so very cheap.

 

[BlueShadow]

Again, Ronidazole is a highly effective antiprotozoal - coccidiosis is caused by coccidial protozoan. So she IS being treated for coccidiosis. The rest of the flock will be treated with Corid. And I always follow with vitamins and probiotics for 2 weeks after any medications are done.

I'm very confident in the efficacy of Ronidazole for Cocci and suspect it's lack of use in Poultry has to do with the fact that standards/approvals of drugs on birds used for human consumption are a bit different than in the pigeon hobby.

Ronidazole does NOT work against the species of coccidia that cause disease in chickens. I have looked up Ronidazole in multiple veterinary pharmacology books, and it does not work against Eimeria. Sure, as you have noted, it works against some other flagellated protozoal species, but its mode of action is not effective against Eimeria.

The reason that it is not approved for use in chickens is that it is a known carcinogen. So do not EVER eat eggs or meat from this bird now that you have treated her.

@KikisGirls recommendation to discontinue vitamins if you suspect coccidiosis is a good one. B vitamins will encourage the growth of Eimeria, and will antagonize effective coccidiostats.

 

[sherahart]

We are taking about Coccidia here, not Cocci. Cocci is a term used for round shape bacteria. Eimeria parasites are called Coccidia, and they appear much larger under a microscope than cocci do. I'm a retired Clinical Lab Scientist, so I already knew how to ID many human parasites when I got chickens. I just had to buy a good microscope and study poultry parasites. I had plenty of practice on other parasites before I realized those little spores I was seeing so many of were not mold or fungi or even clostridia spores. They were either Coccidia sporozoites or merozoites or maybe even gametes.

Trouble is, many Coccidia have become resistant to Amprolium. A friend of mine was using 3 tsp Amprolium/gallon water to reduce numbers enough to visually confirm via fecal exams. I called the University of Florida and sent Dr. Gary Butcher numerous pictures of different forms of Coccidia in my chickens being treated with Amprolium. I had already lost about 50 chicks when he consulted with another expert and confirmed that Amprolium resistance is a widespread problem the manufacturer knows about. He said it was never meant to be fed on a continuous basis, but I had heard the opposite, that I was supposed to feed it to chicks for at least 3 months. That's what I did until recently.

I had to check the vet manual myself, and the next page says birds should get extra B vitamins while on Amprolium, but the section on chickens says to refer to instructions. I already had one chicken lose her ability to hold up her head while eating medicated chick feed. Whether it's called Stargazing or wry neck, better give extra B than not. I read somewhere that Coccidia prefer the fake vitamin B in Amprolium, but it's a moot point now that it's not working.

Trying to save my flock, I have been researching other treatments. I've read studies on drugs such as Toltrazuril (Page 896 in the same vet manual) and every bit of research I could find on herbs and other natural substances. My uphill neighbors only use organic remedies, so I have to deal with everything that washes downhill in the rain. There's been an incredible amount of rain this year, so much that our orchard has gullies and every chicken run has washouts to the point where we are bringing in sand by the truckload. However, the new sand has only slowed Coccidia a little, and there's not enough consistency in the studies I've found to help me figure out how much of which natural component of herbs like Oregano I should feed my chickens. The studies don't even use kitchen measurements, so I'm guessing, and I don't like to guess when it comes to my chickens' health. I just want to save them from the awful pain of having their intestines eaten out by those nasty Coccidia.

Why Bayer Animal Health decided against seeking FDA approval for Toltrazuril in the US is probably the usual profit motive: cost vs benefit. Maybe they would change their corporate minds if enough people called. I've heard that Coccidia are responsible for more poultry deaths than any other pathogen, so maybe the next caller should be you.

 

[sbhkma]

We are taking about Coccidia here, not Cocci. Cocci is a term used for round shape bacteria. Eimeria parasites are called Coccidia, and they appear much larger under a microscope than cocci do. I'm a retired Clinical Lab Scientist, so I already knew how to ID many human parasites when I got chickens. I just had to buy a good microscope and study poultry parasites. I had plenty of practice on other parasites before I realized those little spores I was seeing so many of were not mold or fungi or even clostridia spores. They were either Coccidia sporozoites or merozoites or maybe even gametes....

Why Bayer Animal Health decided against seeking FDA approval for Toltrazuril in the US is probably the usual profit motive: cost vs benefit. Maybe they would change their corporate minds if enough people called. I've heard that Coccidia are responsible for more poultry deaths than any other pathogen, so maybe the next caller should be you.

Excellent post and very informative, even if a bit disturbing.

 

[Kiki]

Ronidazole does NOT work against the species of coccidia that cause disease in chickens. I have looked up Ronidazole in multiple veterinary pharmacology books, and it does not work against Eimeria. Sure, as you have noted, it works against some other flagellated protozoal species, but its mode of action is not effective against Eimeria.

This is what I have been trying to say!
Thanks.

 

[fruitbrute]

We are taking about Coccidia here, not Cocci. Cocci is a term used for round shape bacteria. Eimeria parasites are called Coccidia, and they appear much larger under a microscope than cocci do. I'm a retired Clinical Lab Scientist, so I already knew how to ID many human parasites when I got chickens. I just had to buy a good microscope and study poultry parasites. I had plenty of practice on other parasites before I realized those little spores I was seeing so many of were not mold or fungi or even clostridia spores. They were either Coccidia sporozoites or merozoites or maybe even gametes.

Lordy. This has turned into a thing.

Sorry, I was simply abbreviating - was not suggesting the Cocci bacteria. I've only been talking about coccidiois and the Protozoa responsible.

Again, I have maintained this whole time that I ONLY used the Furaltadone/Ronidazole pills (which are for pigeons, and indicate on the package they are specifically for the treatment of coccidiosis, e.coli, salmonella, paratyphoid; and I have been using them with 100% success for 11 years with pigeons) because it was an emergency, it was all I had, and after the one dose she responded favorably so I decided to continue the course of 7 days treatment so as not to "leave behind" and resistant strains of anything.

I am giving her a week off, having a fecal sample tested Monday from her and a random flock sample (they have not yet been treated for anything and all appear fine), and if she or anyone else still shows signs of anything I will treat whomever accordingly with whatever the vet suggests.

I think there was a disconnect in flow of information here.

1. I didn't use the Ronidazole/Furaltadone pills as a first choice, it was what I had and it is what we use in the pigeon hobby (and yes, it is used specifically for Coccidia, as per every pigeon hobbyist and the package label, and every pigeon supply site)
2. I never disputed the use of corid/amprolium
3. I only continued it for the full 7 days because
- she responded to it
- I didn't want to stop it short and leave behind stronger strains of whatever it was killing off
4. I still defend the use of mild vitamin support during treatment with this medication as it operates differently than amprolium by targeting DNA/RNA and has nothing to do with thiamine
5. No I do not recommend using this particular pigeon medication on chickens in general for the potential carcinogenic and mutagenicity reasons I already mentioned and because there are better options out there.

I think overall we are all on the same page here, some people are just not reading clearly or I am not explaining myself clearly enough...

Man, you wouldn't think the 70 year old curmudgeonly pigeon hobbyists would be an easier group to communicate with than chicken people... but.. wow.



all that said, she is doing very well. moving around more each day but still not super mobile. Her poops look great, still eating and drinking on her own. Her original owner reports her flock and rest of her clutch are doing great, and has sent pics. all of my other birds still seem normal. hopefully fecals will shed some light.

 

[Ming Ming]

give her some probiotics and some sugar water

 

[Ming Ming]

the medicated feed only prevents cocc, cut it and go to normal stuff, she needs the protein