SPR are absolutely beautiful birds. While I don't breed them, I do have one hen and a nearby source for more if I ever need some. Ana is my resident broody and is right now, raising her 4th clutch of the year lol.
Silver Pencilled Plymouth Rock
- Thread starter Egghead_Jr
- Start date
YdogsflY
Songster
- Jun 21, 2017
- 337
- 241
- 130
I don't have a dog in this discussion, but it's a good one. Nice looking fowl as well. Will be reading and learning.
Here is a free version of the book.
https://archive.org/details/matingbreedingof00lamo
Here is a free version of the book.
https://archive.org/details/matingbreedingof00lamo
- Thread starter
- #23
Yup that's the book. What's of interest to me lately is section on combination mating. The idea of same cock over two different type hens to produce offspring of both is shedding light on what is later said of ability to use single mating of Silver Pencilled with good success.
The author's say breeding one line then go on to say breeding birds closest to SOP can also provide fine birds. That was always confusing to me but think I've finally see what they mean. Initially I took those two things to be one in the same or complimentary matings where you're using say a bird with slightly higher than desired tail to improve birds with low tails and also mating birds close to SOP, all birds are of same line and you don't have to use a double mating system. In reading combination breeding again think I get it now how single mating can be just as good as double mating with this variety.
The standard pullet will throw cockerels with white splash and vise versa using cockerels with white and lacing will throw better standard pullets. Full patterned, thinner penciled pullets. Thicker penciled, darker pullets throw standard males with full black in all sections. What I think they are saying and will try it in 2019 and 2020 is you can single mate this variety as long as you keep both types of pullets. You'd always be using a close to SOP cock (as long as it came from a full penciled hen) over both type of hens; the darker pullets will provide SOP males and future dark pullets to mate and the SOP cock (if it came from full pencilled hen) over SOP hens will throw the desired silver pullets with thin penciling. Definitely going to give that a shot. Worse case scenario is it puts me back another year on a pullet line if it proves double mating is the only way to go to get both sexes to conform to SOP.
Don't get me wrong, I like cock birds but the idea of having to carry two lines of multiple breeding cocks would be somewhat bothersome. It's providing all the housing for two different breeds just to carry a male and female line of one variety.
The author's say breeding one line then go on to say breeding birds closest to SOP can also provide fine birds. That was always confusing to me but think I've finally see what they mean. Initially I took those two things to be one in the same or complimentary matings where you're using say a bird with slightly higher than desired tail to improve birds with low tails and also mating birds close to SOP, all birds are of same line and you don't have to use a double mating system. In reading combination breeding again think I get it now how single mating can be just as good as double mating with this variety.
The standard pullet will throw cockerels with white splash and vise versa using cockerels with white and lacing will throw better standard pullets. Full patterned, thinner penciled pullets. Thicker penciled, darker pullets throw standard males with full black in all sections. What I think they are saying and will try it in 2019 and 2020 is you can single mate this variety as long as you keep both types of pullets. You'd always be using a close to SOP cock (as long as it came from a full penciled hen) over both type of hens; the darker pullets will provide SOP males and future dark pullets to mate and the SOP cock (if it came from full pencilled hen) over SOP hens will throw the desired silver pullets with thin penciling. Definitely going to give that a shot. Worse case scenario is it puts me back another year on a pullet line if it proves double mating is the only way to go to get both sexes to conform to SOP.
Don't get me wrong, I like cock birds but the idea of having to carry two lines of multiple breeding cocks would be somewhat bothersome. It's providing all the housing for two different breeds just to carry a male and female line of one variety.
- Thread starter
- #24
They are brooding machines! People that think you need a Silkie or Cochin have obviously never witnessed these walking incubators.
Ana is a pretty girl. I like her flat back, lack of cushion too.
Storybook Farm
Songster
That's really interesting. I actually don't have a big housing issue because I plan to keep three SMALL flocks (1 cock and 5-6 hens each) in inexpensive hoop houses that I've designed for the purposes of genetic diversity.
This means I have three cocks over 5-6 hens at all times, so can keep a so-called pullet line and cock line. I raise a LOT of juvies together (toe punched and wing banded) in bigger "barracks" spring and summers and then cull down to the small breeder flocks each fall. Pullets who don't make the cut into these families go into my layer flock (I sell eggs for consumption locally).
There's more info on my blog...
This means I have three cocks over 5-6 hens at all times, so can keep a so-called pullet line and cock line. I raise a LOT of juvies together (toe punched and wing banded) in bigger "barracks" spring and summers and then cull down to the small breeder flocks each fall. Pullets who don't make the cut into these families go into my layer flock (I sell eggs for consumption locally).
There's more info on my blog...
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Storybook Farm
Songster
- Thread starter
- #27
Really like that first pullet. Nice yellow legs. They will darken with age so could be hard to spot her when hens. Might want to make a note of her leg color and band number.
I prefer small group mating to track birds parentage better. Quads are as large a group I go and all I had to do these past two years. Line breeding and knowing exact lineage is where this flock is going but in the infant stages of building a line it's easy.
I prefer small group mating to track birds parentage better. Quads are as large a group I go and all I had to do these past two years. Line breeding and knowing exact lineage is where this flock is going but in the infant stages of building a line it's easy.
Hello, all - I have been breeding SPR for a good many years and have found them most challenging to breed. They are most definitely not for the faint of heart, or for those wishing to "make their mark" on the poultry world. They have moved so far from the SOP it will take many years to get them back.
I believe they fell out of favor with breeders due to the difficulty of the genetics. It's much, much easier to breed a solid colored bird, and the solids have been worked on consistently and by some pretty knowledgeable breeders for a good long time.
I do have a few comments, all my personal opinion, take them with a grain of salt if you will. I cannot speak to the "red" issue, as I have not seen that in my flock. My flock originated from a line that does not include Horstman or Murphy blood, so that could possibly be the "red" issue. The SMUTTY issue, however, is present in all the lines that I have personally seen (and I think I've seen them all). In my opinion it comes from the lack of silver genetic. Even though these birds are CALLED "silver," most do not carry the silver color gene. When they do, you will not see that smuttiness, and that silver genetic will move us far. Problem is, I believe smutty is recessive, genetically...meaning, you can have a bird that looks lovely, appearing to have a pure white base, and nice, crisp penciling. Use her, and her offspring may end up smutty. Why? The male can be a carrier but not express it. Thus, you're breeding two carriers, resulting in offspring having it.
That said, we should ALL go back to the old adage, "Build the barn first...then paint it." It's far more important to have good Plymouth Rock conformation that perfect color. I know, I know...we ALL want that pretty penciling in our hens. But, I think many breeders over the years (again, just my opinion) have gotten away from conformation with this breed because the pattern is so beautiful, and have based their breeding decisions more on pattern than conformation.
There are some things that you should ALWAYS see in a PR, and I would never breed a bird forward without them. To me, the most important is the topline - when looking at the bird directly from the side, from the base of neck back, the back should be inclined upward. This bird should have good balance, front to back. That is, again looking from the side, at the point where the legs attach to the body, the bird should not be front heavy (a common fault). The body, when viewed from the top, should appear in the shape of a rectangle, not round, like a basketball. And from the back, a good hen will have the tent shape to her tail, wider at the base and forming a tent shape.
These things are super basic, and the building blocks of a good bird.
Some of the things I see commonly are short station, much too fluffy, small heads, dusky yellow legs rather than bright yellow and, of course, overall size.
Size is a tough one. We're competing with some birds that are being bred to almost double the size they should be....it's - frankly - ridiculous. You don't ever want to be caged next to the Whites at a show! Most of our poor SPR look like bantams in comparison, sadly.
Egghead - what a lovely female! I am impressed. Keep up the good work. Focus on the overall size for your next go round, including station. Watch heads...we want large heads, not small ones. And the fluff issue...visualize a Cornish - that's clearly much too tight feathered for a PR, but we need them to have tighter feathering than most do.
Storybrook - and all - watch those cushions! It's a major flaw in our SPR and I would not breed forward a female with a cushion unless she had an awful lot of other reasons to do so. The female in post 26 has a pretty good cushion. To work on this, breed to a a cock with a LONG back - nice and wide body. The back length and width will really push your birds forward.
One last word on heads. Look at the distance from the top of the eye to the top of the head, then compare that to the bottom of the eye to the bottom of the skull. The first measurement should be longer than the second. You can with a day-old chick whether they'll have a nice head or not. So happy to see folks working this most awesome variety of Plymouth Rock!!
I believe they fell out of favor with breeders due to the difficulty of the genetics. It's much, much easier to breed a solid colored bird, and the solids have been worked on consistently and by some pretty knowledgeable breeders for a good long time.
I do have a few comments, all my personal opinion, take them with a grain of salt if you will. I cannot speak to the "red" issue, as I have not seen that in my flock. My flock originated from a line that does not include Horstman or Murphy blood, so that could possibly be the "red" issue. The SMUTTY issue, however, is present in all the lines that I have personally seen (and I think I've seen them all). In my opinion it comes from the lack of silver genetic. Even though these birds are CALLED "silver," most do not carry the silver color gene. When they do, you will not see that smuttiness, and that silver genetic will move us far. Problem is, I believe smutty is recessive, genetically...meaning, you can have a bird that looks lovely, appearing to have a pure white base, and nice, crisp penciling. Use her, and her offspring may end up smutty. Why? The male can be a carrier but not express it. Thus, you're breeding two carriers, resulting in offspring having it.
That said, we should ALL go back to the old adage, "Build the barn first...then paint it." It's far more important to have good Plymouth Rock conformation that perfect color. I know, I know...we ALL want that pretty penciling in our hens. But, I think many breeders over the years (again, just my opinion) have gotten away from conformation with this breed because the pattern is so beautiful, and have based their breeding decisions more on pattern than conformation.
There are some things that you should ALWAYS see in a PR, and I would never breed a bird forward without them. To me, the most important is the topline - when looking at the bird directly from the side, from the base of neck back, the back should be inclined upward. This bird should have good balance, front to back. That is, again looking from the side, at the point where the legs attach to the body, the bird should not be front heavy (a common fault). The body, when viewed from the top, should appear in the shape of a rectangle, not round, like a basketball. And from the back, a good hen will have the tent shape to her tail, wider at the base and forming a tent shape.
These things are super basic, and the building blocks of a good bird.
Some of the things I see commonly are short station, much too fluffy, small heads, dusky yellow legs rather than bright yellow and, of course, overall size.
Size is a tough one. We're competing with some birds that are being bred to almost double the size they should be....it's - frankly - ridiculous. You don't ever want to be caged next to the Whites at a show! Most of our poor SPR look like bantams in comparison, sadly.
Egghead - what a lovely female! I am impressed. Keep up the good work. Focus on the overall size for your next go round, including station. Watch heads...we want large heads, not small ones. And the fluff issue...visualize a Cornish - that's clearly much too tight feathered for a PR, but we need them to have tighter feathering than most do.
Storybrook - and all - watch those cushions! It's a major flaw in our SPR and I would not breed forward a female with a cushion unless she had an awful lot of other reasons to do so. The female in post 26 has a pretty good cushion. To work on this, breed to a a cock with a LONG back - nice and wide body. The back length and width will really push your birds forward.
One last word on heads. Look at the distance from the top of the eye to the top of the head, then compare that to the bottom of the eye to the bottom of the skull. The first measurement should be longer than the second. You can with a day-old chick whether they'll have a nice head or not. So happy to see folks working this most awesome variety of Plymouth Rock!!
- Thread starter
- #29
Good to hear from you Wynette. I do see what you mean about short legs, or think that's what you meant about station. Just another thing to work on. Time will tell if I can make any headway on the size and width side of things. And thank you for the reminder on heads. Believe it was Fred's Hens who always said if you select for largest heads the rest of the body follows.
Storybook Farm
Songster
Thanks for your comments @Wynette! I am looking for another SPR bloodline. (Mine are primarily Horstman.) Do you sell eggs or chicks? I have tried to use the link in your sig to check out your website, and it redirects to here:http://www1.adamsonacres.com/?kw=agriculture business
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