Sled dog breeding

[Americano Blue]

ROFL, again an assumption that you are the only one who can understand working dogs.

No, sled dogs are less $$$ because the desire to work isn't consistently bred in them by the BYBs of "sled dogs". Too many variables with too many different hardwired traits that conflict with each other. I do know a LOT of dogs worth a lot of money that aren't AKC registerable. But they still produce consistently. You can pretty much tell what you're getting in a pup because their breeders use genetics and testing of their dogs.

Heck, you can take two of the most fantastic, awesome, win every race, sled dogs- and their pups may be the absolute worst sled dogs in the world. Mother Nature wins every time. But what do you do with those rejects? They aren't and won't be sled dogs, they aren't pets, they aren't show dogs- What do YOU do with your failures? And you're only lying to yourself if you say there won't be failures. Oh yeah- you sell them to some unsuspecting newbie and refuse to take the dog back when it kills their cat, attacks the neighbor, the vet report shows horrid hips, a bad heart and it's blind. But you got your money and the dog's not your problem anymore.

Note that this is what you've said- The OK dogs go to rec mushers and that you won't take dogs back.

And this time I AM dissing breeders who don't think about ALL their puppies. And grandpuppies and so on. Those breeders who fleece others because they can. The breeders who don't care about both mental and physical health, who allow their puppies to go into just any home that shows up with money. I am dissing breeders who just don't care enough to realize everything is connected, if they do a bad job it reflects on all other breeders. The butterfly in Peru thingie.

I am not dissing working dog breeders.

1st of all I said any dog can turn out great IF you put effort into that dog, and I said you don't typically take back dogs. that doesn't mean you won't take a dog back it just means you put effort into the dogs you sell so you don't have to take it back. the 'failures' (as you put it) can become pets, why couldn't they? the dogs only have a deep want to run if they have done it before. Of course they won't typically EVER come back, but that's just a husky. Most sled dog breeders DO care about the puppies future, your making us sound like cold, heartless people that could care less if our dogs are healthy as long as they pull and take us where we want. I make sure all my dogs are healthy and stuff. My friend makes sure the dogs are going to good homes, not places where they will be abused, neglected and not healthy and not worked. They imaginary failed dog you said before should be put down if its attacking people, has horrible hips, a bad heart, and is blind. Why would any one allow a dog to live in that kind of pain?

 

[tridentk9]

1st of all I said any dog can turn out great IF you put effort into that dog, and I said you don't typically take back dogs. that doesn't mean you won't take a dog back it just means you put effort into the dogs you sell so you don't have to take it back. the 'failures' (as you put it) can become pets, why couldn't they? the dogs only have a deep want to run if they have done it before. Of course they won't typically EVER come back, but that's just a husky.  Most sled dog breeders DO care about the puppies future, your making us sound like cold, heartless people that could care less if our dogs are healthy as long as they pull and take us where we want. I make sure all my dogs are healthy and stuff. My friend makes sure the dogs are going to good homes, not places where they will be abused, neglected and not healthy and  not worked. They imaginary failed dog you said before should be put down if its attacking people, has horrible hips, a bad heart, and is blind. Why would any one allow a dog to live in that kind of pain?

But it's not true. You can't make any dog great if you just put the effort into it. And I AM talking about working dog breeding but not just mushing. Most dogs- but not all. And a good trainer can work miracles but if they answer honestly, they'll agree that not all dogs can be great. On a genetics point of view- the question becomes is the dog great and therefore worth breeding, or is the handling great and the dog has no good inheritable traits to pass on. If you don't understand that you just don't understand genetics and breeding.

Enough mushers breed without any regard for anything but building a team or selling dogs that they have that reputation. And enough stories about the fate of end of season failures that they almost rival dog fight trainers. I will admit though that I have only read the last few pages of this topic but I haven't seen enough to dissuade me.

 

[SternRose]

Ok this thread needs to CALM DOWN!! I can't breed the dogs! I'm not gunna raise sled dogs until I move out of this house( I'm under age) I'm going to college then the rest is unplanned! So I think everyone has made there points, alot of great info, alot of yelling. And I don't think this thread needs opened any more.

No need to reply any more. PM each other to fight it out!

 

[Starfire669]

STOP DISSING MY FRIEND!!!!!!!! YOU GUYS ARE SHOW DOG BREEDERS, MUSHING IS DIFFERENT!  It doesn't matter what AKC says or stuff like that, I'm not saying this isn't good advice, I'm just saying that because you guys aren't mushers you don't really know how to breed a sled dog or what to really look for. sled dogs are less $$$$$ the show dogs cause looks don't matter.

First I was NOT dissing your friend. I has seen lots of people who believed the puppy sellers words without doing research of their own. Their dogs turned out to have issues, bad temperment, hips, or other serious health problems.

At 1 point I was that niave person, but after my first time I started doing lots and lots of homework and now am more educated. And I will hold my girl Dawn up as an example, she was my first Siberian and the dog I got swindled on. I paid $1000 for her, she has champions in her sire line and her breeder knew enough to swindle me. But Dawn is 1/2 inch too tall at the withers, she has a snapped tail, she has a mild underbite, and she is way too hyperactive, bordering on schizophrenic, to easily train. These are just her biggest faults, not all of them. Dawn does love to pull, but the same faults that keep her from being a show dog will also keep her from being a sled dog, she would be average at best, and that's if you could train her. She is not going to be in my future breeding program. The underbite and tail are genetic, so she should never be bred as all her pups will carry those traits. Her temperment too is a fault, Siberians should be hyper but trainable, not schizophrenic. She will be spayed as soon as her current heat is over. The same it true of the female dog, Cheyenne, whom I rescued from the puppy mill. I knowingly bought Cheyenne to save her life, never with the intention to breed her. We already spoke about and covered some of Cheyennes faults so I won't go into them again. Before I purchased my pup Phantom I did a lot of research, called breeders, studied conformation codes, even studied the dogs that are winning in the show rings. Phantom is from a older northern style of Siberian, here where I live the Siberians winning are more slender boned with shorter coats. His pedigree is great, champions on both sides, his conformation is looking good, he is training well. I chose him because I personally liked the old northern style dogs, I feel the dogs down here are too thin legged and don't have enough fur, these dogs wouldn't be able to pull all day or survive 1 night in Alaska. Before research I didn't know there were different body styles in the breed. After I found out, I went for what I liked best.

Please do your research before buying to make sure you understand what you need, that way you don't cough up a lot of money for a lemon the way I and countless others did. I can NOT stress enough, how important it is to do your research before buying. Your knowledge is all that will keep you from being swindled by a smooth talking breeder who only wants your money.

My next big point, that everyone seems to miss, is that the body type of a dog will tell what kind of work that dog can do well. For example, a Clydesdale horse can never be a race horse. It's not built for it, the Clydesdale is built to pull heavy loads at a slow pace, with rests over long distance. If you tried making the Clydesdale run pulling that load all day the horse would break down. And the same is true of racehorses not being able to pull loads, their bodies aren't designed that way. This same principle applies to all animals, even humans and dogs. There is a reason the runner Bolt won the Olympics the way he did, its his body build. An Alaskan Malamute is thicker boned, heavier bodied, and it's shoulder and legs are put on the dog differently than a Siberian Husky. The reason is that Malamutes are heavy fright animals, they pull heavy loads long distance at slow speed. Siberians are built for endurance, they pull light loads at fast speed long distance. Even if your not working with pure bred dogs, knowing how the body type affects is ability to do its job is vital. You could get a pitbull like my neighbors who loves to pull, but put him on a sled and make him run all day and he will break down. So study the sled dog breds, their conformation codes, understand how shoulder slope, rear end angle, head and tail carriage, rib spacing, paw shape, and more affect the dogs performance. You can apply the knowledge to any dog breed who you are thinking of making a sled dog out of. Even Alaskan Huskies greatly resemble the Siberians conformation code, is because Siberians were used to create the breed and breeders then refined the dogs to be faster than the Siberian ancestors. Much of the information you need can be found online, you don't have to spend money to learn, just google. Do pay particular attention to skeletal and muscle structure on the dogs as this is where a sled dog is made.

I would look all this up BEFORE I purchased my first intended sled dog. Regardless of if you want to breed, knowing how a dogs body helps it do it's job without breaking down will be extremely important as you start building your team.

 

[Americano Blue]

honestly the best thing you can do is be mentored by a musher who is doing the types of things you want (like a rec mushers in SternRose's case) and have them help you start you team. Any dog can learn to mush they just might not be as well suited for it like an Alaskan husky. Labs and other gun, Alaskan huskies and greyhounds dogs are used as sprint cause of their ability to run quickly. sprint dogs don't carry heavy loads, the most they have to pull is the weight of the sled or scooter and the musher. Sibs, Malamutes and Alaskan huskies are distance because they are bred to pull heavy loads for a long time. Any dog can do rec because its just for fun. Alaskan huskies are used for any type of mushing because they are the perfect dog for this. they aren't a breed so there are no breed standers which makes it easy to find one that fits you needs.
The more hound-ish type (like Meringue) are good for sprint or warmer areas, they ones with thinker coats (Like Griz) are more typically used for distance in cold areas. Tho' most Alaskans are being breed with a thinner coat to keep them from over heating in distance. Any Alaskan husky can be used for any type of mushing most just prefer dogs like the ones i just said. You can also breed different dogs in to the Alaskan to get an Alaskan husky that fits the type of mushing you do better. Like i said there is no need to breed in rec though.
meringue

griz (RIP)

 

[Americano Blue]

I know look for in adult or yearling distance dogs (it's slightly different with puppies because they haven't ran yet, this is when family line are important). You want tough dogs with tough head, good appetites and good, strong shoulders (same with puppies) . they need to have a steady trot that they can keep up for 7-12 hours with just a few breaks. You need leaders that are always ready to go as well as know they verbal and directional commands really well. all the dogs need to be completely comfortable with running in the team and about 55lb is the size range you want. Yes you want think dogs. you should be able to feel the ribs, backbone and hips with out a layer of fat. if they are big dogs their weight should be all muscle and NO fat. this is just the basic idea, but every musher has what they like.

ALWAYS SEE A SLED DOG RUN BEFORE YOU BUY IT!! the worst thing is when you buy a dog you are told is a good runner then you hook it up and the dog refuses to run or won't listen, or has a bad leg thus a bad trot or some other problem like dog aggression

. If you know mushers get their option on the people and the dog(s) you are thinking of buying.

here's a list of questions to when buying a sled dog (you will think of more most likely when the time to buy comes
1. ask why they are selling the dog.
2.if you plan to race, ask if and what races the dog has done (check results)
3. see how the prospective dog/siblings/parents have done
4.ask if the dog has been injured
5.does the dog eat well
6. how far has it run
7.does it have any pet peeves
8. is it an easy keeper
remember, a dog will often act differently for a different person

 

[Starfire669]

honestly the best thing you can do is be mentored by a musher who is doing the types of things you want (like a rec mushers in SternRose's case) and have them help you start you team. Any dog can learn to mush they just might not be as well suited for it like an Alaskan husky. Labs and other gun, Alaskan huskies and greyhounds dogs are used as sprint cause of their ability to run quickly. sprint dogs don't carry heavy loads, the most they have to pull is the weight of the sled or scooter and the musher. Sibs, Malamutes and Alaskan huskies are distance because they are bred to pull heavy loads for a long time. Any dog can do rec because its just for fun. Alaskan huskies are used for any type of mushing because they are the perfect dog for this. they aren't a breed so there are no breed standers which makes it easy to find one that fits you needs. The more hound-ish type (like Meringue) are good for sprint or warmer areas, they ones with thinker coats (Like Griz) are more typically used for distance in cold areas. Tho' most Alaskans are being breed with a thinner coat to keep them from over heating in distance. Any Alaskan husky can be used for any type of mushing most just prefer dogs like the ones i just said. You can also breed different dogs in to the Alaskan to get an Alaskan husky that fits the type of mushing you do better. Like i said there is no need to breed in rec though. meringue griz (RIP)

I agree that SterRose needs a good, honest mentor. But I have to disagree on other points. Why would you run a dog that wasn't well suited to pulling a sled? This risks severe injury, even death to the dog if it isn't suited to pulling and running long distance. Let's take the greyhound, you mentioned. I agree those buggers are lightning fast, but look at its body. It has a narrow, deep chest, a normal harness couldn't be used because it doesn't have enough chest width to cushion the pull/weight of the harness. Also, greyhounds have slender legs, the bones are designed for speed, make the dog pull any significant weight and now you risk the dog breaking a leg. Because there will be times a sled will slip, break through ice (if you have ice where your mushing), tips over, or maybe a rabbit or some animals runs across your dogs and they take off in pursuit. Accidents happen all the time. You might be able to train the dogs great, but you never really know trail conditions until you are on it, and even the best trained dogs can give chase to temping prey animals right in front of them. The other thing you are mistaken about is that Alaskan Malamutes and Siberian Huskys are both freight animals. This is not true. Alaskan Malamutes are freight animals, they are heavy boned, thickly muscled, and larger than Siberians. Also while the 2 breeds were bred for a similar job, the Eskimos had to learn to survive hunting larger game animals, up to and including whales. The Alaskan Malamute was therefore bred to pull the sled, heavy with the results of their successful hunts back to the village. The Chukchi tribes of Siberian also used their dogs to pull their hunts home, but they hunted smaller animals, such as seals and had to travel longer distances to hunt. Their dogs, the Siberian Husky, were therefore bred for stamina, not power. So even though both are sled dogs who were used to haul home the food, they turned out vastly different because of climatic differences in their environments. I recommend looking at the history of the Alaskan Malamute, the Siberian Husky, the Samoyed, and other sledding breeds. Study their conformation, both from pictures and the AKC written standard. This will help you figure out and understand what makes a sled dog good at his job. This will allow you to then purchase dogs who can do what you wish without risk of injury, or the risk of ending up with a dog that simply won't pull. Why does a dog with well slopped solders do better over long distances? Having a well muscled rear end for propulsion is good, but how are those muscles and legs connected to the body, will the dog be able to use all that power in his rear? This kind of knowledge can be applied to any breed, if you are wanting it as a sled dog. Even for rec sledding you do not want a thin boned, straight legged dog in harness. And you don't want to stick a huge over muscled pitbull or rottwieller in harness either. Use the knowledge of existing written standards from breeds like the Malamute, Siberian, Samoyed, and others to help you learn why the Alaskan Husky was developed. Why is it now the fastest sled dog? You could find a mixed breed dog and still compare it to the standards that most closely describe the type of sledding you want to do.

 

[Americano Blue]

http://www.srlee.net/FAQs/sleddog_FAQ.html

 

[Americano Blue]

I agree that SterRose needs a good, honest mentor.

But I have to disagree on other points. Why would you run a dog that wasn't well suited to pulling a sled? This risks severe injury, even death to the dog if it isn't suited to pulling and running long distance. Let's take the greyhound, you mentioned. I agree those buggers are lightning fast, but look at its body. It has a narrow, deep chest, a normal harness couldn't be used because it doesn't have enough chest width to cushion the pull/weight of the harness. Also, greyhounds have slender legs, the bones are designed for speed, make the dog pull any significant weight and now you risk the dog breaking a leg. Because there will be times a sled will slip, break through ice (if you have ice where your mushing), tips over, or maybe a rabbit or some animals runs across your dogs and they take off in pursuit. Accidents happen all the time. You might be able to train the dogs great, but you never really know trail conditions until you are on it, and even the best trained dogs can give chase to temping prey animals right in front of them.

The other thing you are mistaken about is that Alaskan Malamutes and Siberian Huskys are both freight animals. This is not true. Alaskan Malamutes are freight animals, they are heavy boned, thickly muscled, and larger than Siberians. Also while the 2 breeds were bred for a similar job, the Eskimos had to learn to survive hunting larger game animals, up to and including whales. The Alaskan Malamute was therefore bred to pull the sled, heavy with the results of their successful hunts back to the village. The Chukchi tribes of Siberian also used their dogs to pull their hunts home, but they hunted smaller animals, such as seals and had to travel longer distances to hunt. Their dogs, the Siberian Husky, were therefore bred for stamina, not power. So even though both are sled dogs who were used to haul home the food, they turned out vastly different because of climatic differences in their environments.

I recommend looking at the history of the Alaskan Malamute, the Siberian Husky, the Samoyed, and other sledding breeds. Study their conformation, both from pictures and the AKC written standard. This will help you figure out and understand what makes a sled dog good at his job. This will allow you to then purchase dogs who can do what you wish without risk of injury, or the risk of ending up with a dog that simply won't pull. Why does a dog with well slopped solders do better over long distances? Having a well muscled rear end for propulsion is good, but how are those muscles and legs connected to the body, will the dog be able to use all that power in his rear? This kind of knowledge can be applied to any breed, if you are wanting it as a sled dog. Even for rec sledding you do not want a thin boned, straight legged dog in harness. And you don't want to stick a huge over muscled pitbull or rottwieller in harness either.

Use the knowledge of existing written standards from breeds like the Malamute, Siberian, Samoyed, and others to help you learn why the Alaskan Husky was developed. Why is it now the fastest sled dog? You could find a mixed breed dog and still compare it to the standards that most closely describe the type of sledding you want to do.

i was just listing what people use the dogs for, i don't agree that greyhounds should be a sled dog or that sibs should be freight dogs. Greyhounds are used for sprint in warm areas not snow. Sibs, personally should be used for 1-2 day distance races but now a long 10 day race like the Iditarod. i also agree she needs to do research into the type of mushing she will be doing before buying dogs(which is where the mentor helps). Also Pitbulls are used in weight events.
You don't want thin bones for mushing , you do have a point there.

 

[Americano Blue]

also by most dogs can mush, i meant rec. i wouldn't put a golden retriever in a distance race