So I finally found a vet with ties to Cornell that sees chickens... and then the state contacted me to test for AI!

[chickmamato7]

I reached out to the NPIP breeder I got my new chicks and adult rooster from to inform her of my situation so that she could take steps on her end. Her reaction was to laugh & tell me it was nothing to worry about! That Bronchitis & MS is the common cold for chickens. She said that if every BY breeder were tested today 99.9% would be positive for one or the other. It's everywhere-- in your yard, at the feed store, on your cloths, in the air... you can't avoid it & it's basically the breeders rite of passage. She said her vet agrees with her & I should just hatch my eggs indoors and sell the chicks with no guilt at all. She used to be a vet and her husband worked in chicken bio-security for years, and with all the measures taken where he worked, respiratory illness still got in--it's unavoidable. Next day she posted her *many* available chicks online with enticing pics and "NPIP certified breeder".

Are there two schools of thinking on this? This woman is very pleasant & knowledgeable on genetics and seems to have it together in every other way, but how is this ethical? I didn't think the mites were ethical and I'm still dealing with that mess on top of this. It's not easy working FT and taking care of multiple pens, washing in between & in a specific order to avoid cross contamination, endlessly trying to get rid of mites, paying for testing... then I got Covid and had to do all this while barely able to stand.

It seems that anyone who has ms/mg in their flock & wants to stay in business, just gets the basic NPIP certification so they appear safe & keeps selling. I guess if the the US really wanted to get these diseases under control, they would have free testing available for respiratory illness and NPIP MS/MG-Free certification only. Why have 2 options? Am I the one taking this too seriously? With antibiotics, the symptoms do go away in a few days. Even the one who was near death is laying again.

Would love to hear some honest thoughts on this. I don't plan to continue breeding, but I would love to unload the chicks I incubated/ hatched just as this was all unfolding. They have been in the house and I have been very careful not to contaminate them (showering, changing clothes, spraying down with Lysol...). They are 4-5 weeks old and no signs of illness. They went in the incubator before I got the 2nd batch of birds that I presume infected my flock. Is it safe to sell them?

 

[Kiki]

I reached out to the NPIP breeder I got my new chicks and adult rooster from to inform her of my situation so that she could take steps on her end. Her reaction was to laugh & tell me it was nothing to worry about! That Bronchitis & MS is the common cold for chickens. She said that if every BY breeder were tested today 99.9% would be positive for one or the other. It's everywhere-- in your yard, at the feed store, on your cloths, in the air... you can't avoid it & it's basically the breeders rite of passage. She said her vet agrees with her & I should just hatch my eggs indoors and sell the chicks with no guilt at all. She used to be a vet and her husband worked in chicken bio-security for years, and with all the measures taken where he worked, respiratory illness still got in--it's unavoidable. Next day she posted her *many* available chicks online with enticing pics and "NPIP certified breeder".

Are there two schools of thinking on this? This woman is very pleasant & knowledgeable on genetics and seems to have it together in every other way, but how is this ethical? I didn't think the mites were ethical and I'm still dealing with that mess on top of this. It's not easy working FT and taking care of multiple pens, washing in between & in a specific order to avoid cross contamination, endlessly trying to get rid of mites, paying for testing... then I got Covid and had to do all this while barely able to stand.

It seems that anyone who has ms/mg in their flock & wants to stay in business, just gets the basic NPIP certification so they appear safe & keeps selling. I guess if the the US really wanted to get these diseases under control, they would have free testing available for respiratory illness and NPIP MS/MG-Free certification only. Why have 2 options? Am I the one taking this too seriously? With antibiotics, the symptoms do go away in a few days. Even the one who was near death is laying again.

Would love to hear some honest thoughts on this. I don't plan to continue breeding, but I would love to unload the chicks I incubated/ hatched just as this was all unfolding. They have been in the house and I have been very careful not to contaminate them (showering, changing clothes, spraying down with Lysol...). They are 4-5 weeks old and no signs of illness. They went in the incubator before I got the 2nd batch of birds that I presume infected my flock. Is it safe to sell them?

Oh my. This breeder that you bought from... Do you have a link to where they sell or advertise their stuff at?

 

[chickmamato7]

I'm afraid to start any trouble. She really is a lovely woman, just has a different belief system she is following. It would be hard to prove, anyway, since once you leave the sellers property and walk on your own grass...

My guess is that she's probably used to selling to inexperienced chicken owners who free range and don't take even basic bio-security measures. When the birds eventually get sick, she helps them through it and they see her as a wonderful & helpful resource. But all my birds came from hatcheries, were vaccinated and had never stepped foot on grass. My coop is secure from outside birds and rodents, and I have dedicated coop boots and tools. My girls never had any issues with mites or illness until her birds entered the picture. Then, BAM!

She is a highly regarded breeder on the chicken lists in my area (WNY)-- her birds are beautiful & she shows them. She also has horses and breeds show rabbits... has 2 kids involved in 4H, so going to the fairs... she just posted 3 more birds yesterday. Lots of blind interest in them already!

 

[chickmamato7]

FYI--I never did sell the chicks I was wondering about (the ones that hatched as this was all unfolding). They are still living in the house, away from exposure-- all 30 of them!! I don't really know what I am going to do with this hot mess-- winter is coming & I will have way too many birds (and roosters) to deal with in frigid temps.

I still have the mite issue, too. Can't seem to get rid of them. Thinking it's time for Ivermectin. Permethrin doesn't seem to be working. I spray it directly on them and they just crawl to the eyes and ears, where they hide out for a few days so they can lay more eggs. I've been at this for almost 2 months and feeling pretty exhausted with it all. Thoughts or suggestions?

I have some 10 wk old chicks in the mix, that hatched with a broody as this all began. Some of them are severely growth stunted (but otherwise healthy & active), so they are the size of 4 wk old chicks. Others have grown out normally. Wondering if it's safe to treat the tiny ones with Ivermectin?

 

[Auntiejessi3]

FYI--I never did sell the chicks I was wondering about (the ones that hatched as this was all unfolding). They are still living in the house, away from exposure-- all 30 of them!! I don't really know what I am going to do with this hot mess-- winter is coming & I will have way too many birds (and roosters) to deal with in frigid temps.

I still have the mite issue, too. Can't seem to get rid of them. Thinking it's time for Ivermectin. Permethrin doesn't seem to be working. I spray it directly on them and they just crawl to the eyes and ears, where they hide out for a few days so they can lay more eggs. I've been at this for almost 2 months and feeling pretty exhausted with it all. Thoughts or suggestions?

I have some 10 wk old chicks in the mix, that hatched with a broody as this all began. Some of them are severely growth stunted (but otherwise healthy & active), so they are the size of 4 wk old chicks. Others have grown out normally. Wondering if it's safe to treat the tiny ones with Ivermectin?

What a terrible thing you are going through, I'm so sorry! I don't have answers for most of your questions, but I highly recommend elector psp for your mite problem. A whole bottle is pricy, if you can't swing it you can by smaller bottles on ebay. I wish you the best and hope you get this all sorted.

 

[Red Horse]

I reached out to the NPIP breeder I got my new chicks and adult rooster from to inform her of my situation so that she could take steps on her end. Her reaction was to laugh & tell me it was nothing to worry about! That Bronchitis & MS is the common cold for chickens. She said that if every BY breeder were tested today 99.9% would be positive for one or the other. It's everywhere-- in your yard, at the feed store, on your cloths, in the air... you can't avoid it & it's basically the breeders rite of passage. She said her vet agrees with her & I should just hatch my eggs indoors and sell the chicks with no guilt at all. She used to be a vet and her husband worked in chicken bio-security for years, and with all the measures taken where he worked, respiratory illness still got in--it's unavoidable. Next day she posted her *many* available chicks online with enticing pics and "NPIP certified breeder".

Are there two schools of thinking on this? This woman is very pleasant & knowledgeable on genetics and seems to have it together in every other way, but how is this ethical? I didn't think the mites were ethical and I'm still dealing with that mess on top of this. It's not easy working FT and taking care of multiple pens, washing in between & in a specific order to avoid cross contamination, endlessly trying to get rid of mites, paying for testing... then I got Covid and had to do all this while barely able to stand.

It seems that anyone who has ms/mg in their flock & wants to stay in business, just gets the basic NPIP certification so they appear safe & keeps selling. I guess if the the US really wanted to get these diseases under control, they would have free testing available for respiratory illness and NPIP MS/MG-Free certification only. Why have 2 options? Am I the one taking this too seriously? With antibiotics, the symptoms do go away in a few days. Even the one who was near death is laying again.

Would love to hear some honest thoughts on this. I don't plan to continue breeding, but I would love to unload the chicks I incubated/ hatched just as this was all unfolding. They have been in the house and I have been very careful not to contaminate them (showering, changing clothes, spraying down with Lysol...). They are 4-5 weeks old and no signs of illness. They went in the incubator before I got the 2nd batch of birds that I presume infected my flock. Is it safe to

I reached out to the NPIP breeder I got my new chicks and adult rooster from to inform her of my situation so that she could take steps on her end. Her reaction was to laugh & tell me it was nothing to worry about! That Bronchitis & MS is the common cold for chickens. She said that if every BY breeder were tested today 99.9% would be positive for one or the other. It's everywhere-- in your yard, at the feed store, on your cloths, in the air... you can't avoid it & it's basically the breeders rite of passage. She said her vet agrees with her & I should just hatch my eggs indoors and sell the chicks with no guilt at all. She used to be a vet and her husband worked in chicken bio-security for years, and with all the measures taken where he worked, respiratory illness still got in--it's unavoidable. Next day she posted her *many* available chicks online with enticing pics and "NPIP certified breeder".

Are there two schools of thinking on this? This woman is very pleasant & knowledgeable on genetics and seems to have it together in every other way, but how is this ethical? I didn't think the mites were ethical and I'm still dealing with that mess on top of this. It's not easy working FT and taking care of multiple pens, washing in between & in a specific order to avoid cross contamination, endlessly trying to get rid of mites, paying for testing... then I got Covid and had to do all this while barely able to stand.

It seems that anyone who has ms/mg in their flock & wants to stay in business, just gets the basic NPIP certification so they appear safe & keeps selling. I guess if the the US really wanted to get these diseases under control, they would have free testing available for respiratory illness and NPIP MS/MG-Free certification only. Why have 2 options? Am I the one taking this too seriously? With antibiotics, the symptoms do go away in a few days. Even the one who was near death is laying again.

Would love to hear some honest thoughts on this. I don't plan to continue breeding, but I would love to unload the chicks I incubated/ hatched just as this was all unfolding. They have been in the house and I have been very careful not to contaminate them (showering, changing clothes, spraying down with Lysol...). They are 4-5 weeks old and no signs of illness. They went in the incubator before I got the 2nd batch of birds that I presume infected my flock. Is it safe to sell them?

Does Cornell have any kind of extension office you could reach out to and ask how common this really is? I would. I'm still new to chickens, but it sounds to me like this person seems nice on the surface but is trying to justify her poor biosecurity protocols and blatant disregard for the life and property of others as something that's just everywhere and there's nothing anyone can do about it. It wouldn't be the first time a Vet or a former Vet did something unethical. Maybe it's common in the show world where chickens are constantly exposed but not to the rest of us who are trying to maintain healthy productive flocks. If what she is saying isn't true she should be called out somehow so she can't decimate someone else's flock. I'm so frustrated and heartbroken for you and I hope things get better soon.

 

[chickmamato7]

Does Cornell have any kind of extension office you could reach out to and ask how common this really is? I would. I'm still new to chickens, but it sounds to me like this person seems nice on the surface but is trying to justify her poor biosecurity protocols and blatant disregard for the life and property of others as something that's just everywhere and there's nothing anyone can do about it. It wouldn't be the first time a Vet or a former Vet did something unethical. Maybe it's common in the show world where chickens are constantly exposed but not to the rest of us who are trying to maintain healthy productive flocks. If what she is saying isn't true she should be called out somehow so she can't decimate someone else's flock. I'm so frustrated and heartbroken for you and I hope things get better soon.

I did inform the State Vet at Cornell of the breeders' unexpected reaction and my concerns. None of the birds I got from her had the testing bands on and she never offered her NPIP #. Only the birds I got from a secondary breeder (who got her birds from the first) had their bands on. Interestingly, the 2nd breeder was suddenly going out of business just months after getting NPIP certified and locally established. She sold everything real fast-- incubators, waterers, feeders, coops...

So yeah, it does seem to be a common approach where there are no measures in place for reporting, or consequences for taking the low road. I will never buy from an NPIP Basic breeder again. If it doesn't say "MG/MS Free", then there must be a reason. We don't need to test our birds for AI, because they're usually dead before we know they have it. What we need is tighter regulations on who can get NPIP certified. There should only be one level of testing, so we know that NPIP means clean birds, at least at the time of testing.

I think the secondary breeder was innocent in all this. She really didn't seem to know much about chickens beyond basic care & knew absolutely nothing about genetics for being a high quality breeder-- but her birds were beautiful & sold like hot cakes because they came from the first woman.

Interesting to note that when I reached out to the source breeder through FB messenger, she immediately called me by phone to put out the fire (no written records that way). We had a lengthy conversation, where over and over she told me that I needed to stop trying to find the source because you simply can't-- it's everywhere and unavoidable. She also told me I was doing everything in the most expensive way. She tried to lead me away from the Vet who connected me with the right people at Cornell (..."she will cost you a fortune... she is impossible to get into... when your chickens are sick, you need a vet who can see you NOW, not weeks from now..."). She thought I should go to her vet (2 hrs away) because she is much cheaper and readily available... and also sees things her way.

At first I thought this woman was evil, but then I thought she just seemed so nice in every other way. I don't know her life story or family circumstances, so I don't want to judge her too harshly. It's expensive to raise horses and parent 2 children on a teacher's salary & it didn't seem like the husband was working... maybe this income is critical to the well-being of her family and her mind is making justifications. The warning signs were all there and I saw them. The repeated reminders to check for mites because Silkies are so prone to them... the birds all housed outside in temporary pens that were not at all predator proof... letting me walk up to the cages and into the house where the chicks were... so many signs. I let the beauty of her birds cloud my judgement, I didn't do my research, I didn't properly quarantine... so I am the one who holds responsibility for what happened to my flock.

I can only hope that others will learn from my unfortunate experience and somewhere another flock will be saved from reading about it here.

 

[PastyButtsMom]

I'm afraid to start any trouble. She really is a lovely woman, just has a different belief system she is following. It would be hard to prove, anyway, since once you leave the sellers property and walk on your own grass...

My guess is that she's probably used to selling to inexperienced chicken owners who free range and don't take even basic bio-security measures. When the birds eventually get sick, she helps them through it and they see her as a wonderful & helpful resource. But all my birds came from hatcheries, were vaccinated and had never stepped foot on grass. My coop is secure from outside birds and rodents, and I have dedicated coop boots and tools. My girls never had any issues with mites or illness until her birds entered the picture. Then, BAM!

She is a highly regarded breeder on the chicken lists in my area (WNY)-- her birds are beautiful & she shows them. She also has horses and breeds show rabbits... has 2 kids involved in 4H, so going to the fairs... she just posted 3 more birds yesterday. Lots of blind interest in them already!

I don’t think it’s unethical to sell your chicks, so long as you’re not advertising them as being absolutely free of disease etc. sounds like you take way more precaution than most. The only difference is that you have this info. It would probably be best to be upfront about having had infection in your flock but also explain your routine to keep the chicks healthy.
Most importantly, I wanted to say that I’m so sorry you had to go through all that. Covid was rough for me too - I cannot imagine having to take care of the animals, sick animals no less, during that! I’m so glad you’re through it. You’ve been so careful about bio security and then to get chicks from someone who misled you (and that is what she’s doing - no matter how nice and knowledgeable she seems, she is misleading people and she ought to be honest) and get sick chicks. How devastating. I’m so so sorry. But I thank you for doing the right thing by being honest and for being si concerned about going about things the right way. Take care!

 

[chickmamato7]

I don’t think it’s unethical to sell your chicks, so long as you’re not advertising them as being absolutely free of disease etc. sounds like you take way more precaution than most. The only difference is that you have this info. It would probably be best to be upfront about having had infection in your flock but also explain your routine to keep the chicks healthy.
Most importantly, I wanted to say that I’m so sorry you had to go through all that. Covid was rough for me too - I cannot imagine having to take care of the animals, sick animals no less, during that! I’m so glad you’re through it. You’ve been so careful about bio security and then to get chicks from someone who misled you (and that is what she’s doing - no matter how nice and knowledgeable she seems, she is misleading people and she ought to be honest) and get sick chicks. How devastating. I’m so so sorry. But I thank you for doing the right thing by being honest and for being si concerned about going about things the right way. Take care!

Thank you for taking the time to so thoughtfully respond. I'm happy to hear that it's probably okay to sell the chicks, which have all remained healthy, are getting bigger by the week, & smelling up my house! I really need to unload them before the cold weather hits, but was afraid to do it in case they could be carriers. I like your idea of being upfront about the infection in my outdoor flock and the precautions I have taken to keep the chicks safe. I might just go to the next flock swap where the risk is high and be honest with any buyers. I figure that people who shop at flock swaps are not overly concerned about bio-security or flock health, so probably already have one thing or another in their flocks.