Quote:
Ar 34.99 for 15 pounds i will just have to settle for weak peafowl for now.
Ar 34.99 for 15 pounds i will just have to settle for weak peafowl for now.
So sad, Lost one of my new peacocks today!
- Thread starter thndrdancr
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Turkeys and peafowl have very different life histories. Their diets are clearly not the same. Turkey food is fine to feed peafowl. You know how good it is when the expunge upwards of thirty percent of it undigested . Professional feed formulators are in the habit of undertaking exhaustive nutrition trials before putting product on the market. Deer Man perhaps you should do more than give a precursory skim of my post before commenting. Turkey feed is a maintenance diet. UltraKibble is a supplement.
Turkeys and peafowl have very different life histories. Their diets are clearly not the same. Turkey food is fine to feed peafowl. You know how good it is when the expunge upwards of thirty percent of it undigested . Professional feed formulators are in the habit of undertaking exhaustive nutrition trials before putting product on the market. Deer Man perhaps you should do more than give a precursory skim of my post before commenting. Turkey feed is a maintenance diet. UltraKibble is a supplement.
deerman
Rest in Peace 1949-2012
Quote:
Turkeys and peafowl have very different life histories. Their diets are clearly not the same. Turkey food is fine to feed peafowl. You know how good it is when the expunge upwards of thirty percent of it undigested . Professional feed formulators are in the habit of undertaking exhaustive nutrition trials before putting product on the market. Deer Man perhaps you should do more than give a precursory skim of my post before commenting. Turkey feed is a maintenance diet. UltraKibble is a supplement.
Yes and its not formulated for peafowl either...........if you note both main ingredients are mostly corm....peafowl are not parrots or catfish either.
Guess you never seen turkey kill and eat those same thing peafowl do.......Oh i forgot this is your super feed that will cure all
Turkeys and peafowl have very different life histories. Their diets are clearly not the same. Turkey food is fine to feed peafowl. You know how good it is when the expunge upwards of thirty percent of it undigested . Professional feed formulators are in the habit of undertaking exhaustive nutrition trials before putting product on the market. Deer Man perhaps you should do more than give a precursory skim of my post before commenting. Turkey feed is a maintenance diet. UltraKibble is a supplement.
Yes and its not formulated for peafowl either...........if you note both main ingredients are mostly corm....peafowl are not parrots or catfish either.
Guess you never seen turkey kill and eat those same thing peafowl do.......Oh i forgot this is your super feed that will cure all
Quote:
Ar 34.99 for 15 pounds i will just have to settle for weak peafowl for now.
On our older birds what I do is buy 22% Quail Grower and 15% Poultry Crumbles mix them together works fine add some dry cat or dog food and you have ( "Instant SUPER HERO ULTRA KIBBLE PEAFOWL FOOD"
) a pretty good mix that you can feed to your peafowl and pheasants leave the dog or cat food out you can feed this to your chickens as well.
Ar 34.99 for 15 pounds i will just have to settle for weak peafowl for now.
On our older birds what I do is buy 22% Quail Grower and 15% Poultry Crumbles mix them together works fine add some dry cat or dog food and you have ( "Instant SUPER HERO ULTRA KIBBLE PEAFOWL FOOD"
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Quote:
One of the things I've noticed over the thirty years or so working professionally with birds is that many folks are intimidated by scientific fact. Scientific facts are discovered through thorough experimentation. Theories must be substantiated before they can be considered fact. Rather than meet these certain truths on the merits of science, the knee jerk people make up inane quotes and attribute them to whomever they've decided to disagree with for whatever reason.
I've never once suggested that UltraKibble is a "super hero kibble feed".
Moreover, I haven't claimed that it "gives your peafowl super powers to overcome everything that harms them". I'm not given to hyperbole at this stage in my life.
It's also been my experience that for whatever reason, a good many peafowl hobbyists are some of the least logical animal managers I've encountered.
Genetic contamination
Sinusitis
Mycoplasma infection
Haphazard Overbreeding resulting in Pretty Peacock Mutt Dump
UltraKibble will not be able to cure genetic contamination; sinusitius, mycoplasma or round worm, coccidia or lice infestations for example. Nor will it cure the chronic conceit, mean-spirited smears of unethical breeders. It can't solve the issue of people dumping thousands of haphazardly crossed selective breeding experiments onto uninitiated hobbyists. I wish it could solve these problems. What UltraKiblle can do is help to prevent some of these problems to begin with. Proactive measures generally have the best results, in my opinion. But then it's taken me decades to get to that honest assessment of my own husbandry failures (hence the term Resolution). These products help meet challenges every aviculturist and poultry farmer stumbles over. Ethical considerations will leave some of us with the sort of resolve that leaves us adopting sustainable solutions.
* In rereading this I realised its a bit saltier sounding than I intended. Flagrant use of matte tea today. I'll make something clear here. I have great respect for selective breeding specialists. They feel like they have to hatch thousands of eggs from an inordinate number of breeders in order to produce that one masterpiece.
It can be demonstrated that ideal nutrients in the adults makes for healthier reproductive systems- including spermatzoa and perhaps most importantly, the embryonic cells- more specifically the yolk- it can be demonstrated that superior chicks hatch from this material...
A selectionist working with colour mutations of peafowl and guineafowl, turkeys and chickens- partridges - any galliform bird species -they can up the ante with their genetic work by supplementing appropriately with specific nutrients . These that produce different structural components of the cells which make up the feathers themselves. Other nutrients provided through supplementation are helpful in the production of certain lipids that condition and protect plumage against solar radiation; buffering plumage against debrasian - certain waxes produced by glands on the body of the birds- producing waxes and oils- whose matrix combined form waterproof coating against particulate matter- against thorny vegetation- snake bite- wind whatever- .
In the wild or in domestic life, Debraded plumage provides a superior surface for bacterial contamination than that of smooth immaculate plumage. Once a bird has gotten ratty its difficult to keep them clean. In a captive situation, for example during winters in climates where birds are often housed in closed dusty quarters, debraded plumage soon soaks up whatever isn't healthy and soon the bird is coated in a fine soot blanket only soaked up and inhaled as the bird tries in vain to rid itself of the pollutant.
Environments are a big part of the issue- if we are serious about ending the cycle of disease and infection. Preventative measures against infection include housing the bird right=never crowded -never dusty-
The aviculturist obliged to hatch hundreds of birds to select a very few birds with the desired aesthetic- invites trouble -they end up rearing chicks in high production environments - it's intensive work - lots of birds- lots of dusty chick starter- lots of work.
If a selection bent aviculturist only had to hatch a quarter of the birds to hatch the % of mutants that meet that desired aesthetic- they would be better of and so would the birds.
A selectionist hatches chicks from two different groups:
1.Mothers of the first group produce clutches maintained on turkey crumble with no supplementation.
2. Mothers of the second group produce clutches maintained on an appropriate supplement and scratch grain and or wild bird seed with no commercial feed.
Which of the two groups females will produce the most eggs? A second question may be which of the two groups produces more thoroughly pigmented morphs per
clutch? What is the survivability of these respective groups of chicks? How do they 'coulour out'? Which of the two groups has the largest % of birds that develop a complete set of feathers over the period of a few weeks versus a month? A hen may lay plenty of eggs produced from nutritionally deficient diet. The cost on her health is not insignificant. Her chicks' immune system may be compromised from hatch onwards. Exposed to dusty starter that they inhale-fed more insufficient feed- of course the chicks that hatch and survive in these environments on these diets are naturally undergoing a vigorous selection process of their own. The chicks that hatch and survive are more thoroughly domesticated than the generation before. To some this selection is beneficial, they want the degenerative version of what they started with... their imprint on the species in their care includes stripping away layers of evolutionary potential. Without mankind the domestic creature cannot survive. It is easily destroyed by predators, starvation, weather-but it can live in the filthiest environments and not die straight away. That's not stock that will thrive in the environment of a farm or ranch. It will however be perfectly at home in a production hen house. All joy it brings will be limited to this generation as the domestication process is fixed- that door is locked behind each successive generation.
Another essential question for this conversation is which husbandry method costs more at the end of a month?
I'm sure of a few facts useful to this conversation substantiated by scientific fact. For example, captive Congo Peafowl and Crested Argus ( just two species of dozens) populations were plummeting. We wanted to know why. We included the top zoo nutritionists and feed manufacturers in the world.
Once we'd figured out the issues -the deciding factors behind mortality and infertility, we knew we'd finally discovered a few solutions to what seemed to be insurmountable challenges. To be clear, every one of the problems of a given species captive management have not been solved. Some critical ones have been. Indeed, the captive populations of our target species have increased exponentially.
Getting back to science fact-feed trials, protein analysis- amino acid profiles-
Amino Acid Profile Analysis is how zoo nutritionists discovered that leading brands of gamebird and turkey feeds were no longer adequate for certain rare and endangered subtropical pheasant and pheasant-like species ( like peafowl, fireback pheasants, green junglefowl and ocellated turkeys for example). The birds reproductive health had been declining for more than a decade in some situations and private aviculturists were dealing with the same issues. Mortality of females, moulting males; juveniles and sub-adults were also major topics that deserved scientific examination. We needed rigorous experimentation- versus guessing and posturing; pointing fingers, designating blame etc.
The analysis trials began with Indian Peafowl and Ring Necked Pheasants; White Rocks and Bronze Domestic Turkeys.
The flocks were delineated into different groups and fed different diets. The diets with steamed soybean meal as their primary protein source were of particular interest because, as I have stated several times previously in several different threads, feed manufacturers pulled animal proteins like fish and bone meal as a means of increasing their profit margins, beginning with layer and broiler feeds. It had been determined that domestic species with very short life spans ( five weeks to ~ two years ) thrived on the new formulations. It was a mark of genius by the poultry scientists and their feed manufacturers. Nevertheless, these changes in formulation were also made for gamebirds. This made quite a lot of sense given the fact that gamebird feeds made up ~ 5% of overall sales for the three major USA feed manufacturers. In other words, the major feed manufacturers don't sell much gamebird feed. Their money is made in broiler and egg layer feeds. Birds expected to have long,( 5-35 year lifespans) productive lives simply don't thrive over the long term. Mycoplasma infections are on the rise. You'll be hard pressed to find a single collection that doesn't suffer from one infection or another. The birds are becoming increasingly immune deficient. The captive habitat is a big part of that. Dusty pellets and mashes mixing with big wet droppings loaded with undigested feedstuffs- smearing all over the feet and feathers of birds- well it's a mess naturally.
Getting back to feed trials
Their droppings were analysed using very specific methods, which have been used for more than fifty years-by poultry scientists and livestock feed manufacturers. It was determined that Bronze Turkeys are capable of utilising vegetable proteins more efficiently than any of the other species in the trials. Ring Necked Pheasants and White Rocks were completely digesting ~ 10 less of the same amino acids that domestic Turkeys were. Indian Peafowl were the least efficient, thoroughly digesting ~ 20 % less than domestic Turkeys. Once we started experimenting with different feed formulations we generated more optimal nutrition for a wide range of species.
The Agriocharis or Ocellated Turkey does not thrive, in captivity, on diets formulated for Domestic Turkeys because the two respective Turkey species have very different life histories. The Ocellated Turkey lives in a subtropical environment year round. Consequently, the species is able to forage on invertebrates all year round. Conversely, North American Wild Turkeys, those progenitors of the familiar Domestic Turkey, live in temperate climates. Because their habitats experience dramatic weather oscillations, including winter, the Wild Turkey cannot live on invertebrates all year round. Instead, they are adapted to forage on plant materials that are also high in crude proteins, proteins that the Agriocharis cannot metabolise with any of the same efficiency. Wild Turkeys are more highly adapted more highly evolved than the primitive ancestor (Agriocharis) from which they are derived. The Agriocharis Turkeys died out in North America during the Pleistocene, possibly because they could not procure their nutritional requirements.
No one knows for certain why Agriocharis died out in North America, while its cousin Meleagris thrived.
What I do know is that serious aviculturists for many decades more experience than I have- use UltraKibble exclusively.
UltraKibble is a supplement. Its added to whatever your favorite maintenance diet is.
It's an optimal bundle of nutrition that makes captive birds appear as if they are wild caught because of the entire nutrient package- the micronutrients, macronutrients, fatty acids, entire amino acide profile- the whole deal. If you'd like to see a white peacock become iridescent feed your breeding pair UltraKibble- at a 50% ratio to maintenance feed. Count how many chicks hatch out of your clutch from that pair and compare that to a pair on the diet you've maintained them on previously. Mark the birds clearly so you can compare and contrast them as they age. Which chicks develop iridescent plumage? Let us know. If you decide not to try the feed there really isn't any point in criticizing it now is there? Ignorance is only bliss when you keep it yourself.
I'm confident that the proof is in the results, in the science.
One of the things I've noticed over the thirty years or so working professionally with birds is that many folks are intimidated by scientific fact. Scientific facts are discovered through thorough experimentation. Theories must be substantiated before they can be considered fact. Rather than meet these certain truths on the merits of science, the knee jerk people make up inane quotes and attribute them to whomever they've decided to disagree with for whatever reason.
I've never once suggested that UltraKibble is a "super hero kibble feed".
Moreover, I haven't claimed that it "gives your peafowl super powers to overcome everything that harms them". I'm not given to hyperbole at this stage in my life.
It's also been my experience that for whatever reason, a good many peafowl hobbyists are some of the least logical animal managers I've encountered.
Genetic contamination
Sinusitis
Mycoplasma infection
Haphazard Overbreeding resulting in Pretty Peacock Mutt Dump
UltraKibble will not be able to cure genetic contamination; sinusitius, mycoplasma or round worm, coccidia or lice infestations for example. Nor will it cure the chronic conceit, mean-spirited smears of unethical breeders. It can't solve the issue of people dumping thousands of haphazardly crossed selective breeding experiments onto uninitiated hobbyists. I wish it could solve these problems. What UltraKiblle can do is help to prevent some of these problems to begin with. Proactive measures generally have the best results, in my opinion. But then it's taken me decades to get to that honest assessment of my own husbandry failures (hence the term Resolution). These products help meet challenges every aviculturist and poultry farmer stumbles over. Ethical considerations will leave some of us with the sort of resolve that leaves us adopting sustainable solutions.
* In rereading this I realised its a bit saltier sounding than I intended. Flagrant use of matte tea today. I'll make something clear here. I have great respect for selective breeding specialists. They feel like they have to hatch thousands of eggs from an inordinate number of breeders in order to produce that one masterpiece.
It can be demonstrated that ideal nutrients in the adults makes for healthier reproductive systems- including spermatzoa and perhaps most importantly, the embryonic cells- more specifically the yolk- it can be demonstrated that superior chicks hatch from this material...
A selectionist working with colour mutations of peafowl and guineafowl, turkeys and chickens- partridges - any galliform bird species -they can up the ante with their genetic work by supplementing appropriately with specific nutrients . These that produce different structural components of the cells which make up the feathers themselves. Other nutrients provided through supplementation are helpful in the production of certain lipids that condition and protect plumage against solar radiation; buffering plumage against debrasian - certain waxes produced by glands on the body of the birds- producing waxes and oils- whose matrix combined form waterproof coating against particulate matter- against thorny vegetation- snake bite- wind whatever- .
In the wild or in domestic life, Debraded plumage provides a superior surface for bacterial contamination than that of smooth immaculate plumage. Once a bird has gotten ratty its difficult to keep them clean. In a captive situation, for example during winters in climates where birds are often housed in closed dusty quarters, debraded plumage soon soaks up whatever isn't healthy and soon the bird is coated in a fine soot blanket only soaked up and inhaled as the bird tries in vain to rid itself of the pollutant.
Environments are a big part of the issue- if we are serious about ending the cycle of disease and infection. Preventative measures against infection include housing the bird right=never crowded -never dusty-
The aviculturist obliged to hatch hundreds of birds to select a very few birds with the desired aesthetic- invites trouble -they end up rearing chicks in high production environments - it's intensive work - lots of birds- lots of dusty chick starter- lots of work.
If a selection bent aviculturist only had to hatch a quarter of the birds to hatch the % of mutants that meet that desired aesthetic- they would be better of and so would the birds.
A selectionist hatches chicks from two different groups:
1.Mothers of the first group produce clutches maintained on turkey crumble with no supplementation.
2. Mothers of the second group produce clutches maintained on an appropriate supplement and scratch grain and or wild bird seed with no commercial feed.
Which of the two groups females will produce the most eggs? A second question may be which of the two groups produces more thoroughly pigmented morphs per
clutch? What is the survivability of these respective groups of chicks? How do they 'coulour out'? Which of the two groups has the largest % of birds that develop a complete set of feathers over the period of a few weeks versus a month? A hen may lay plenty of eggs produced from nutritionally deficient diet. The cost on her health is not insignificant. Her chicks' immune system may be compromised from hatch onwards. Exposed to dusty starter that they inhale-fed more insufficient feed- of course the chicks that hatch and survive in these environments on these diets are naturally undergoing a vigorous selection process of their own. The chicks that hatch and survive are more thoroughly domesticated than the generation before. To some this selection is beneficial, they want the degenerative version of what they started with... their imprint on the species in their care includes stripping away layers of evolutionary potential. Without mankind the domestic creature cannot survive. It is easily destroyed by predators, starvation, weather-but it can live in the filthiest environments and not die straight away. That's not stock that will thrive in the environment of a farm or ranch. It will however be perfectly at home in a production hen house. All joy it brings will be limited to this generation as the domestication process is fixed- that door is locked behind each successive generation.
Another essential question for this conversation is which husbandry method costs more at the end of a month?
I'm sure of a few facts useful to this conversation substantiated by scientific fact. For example, captive Congo Peafowl and Crested Argus ( just two species of dozens) populations were plummeting. We wanted to know why. We included the top zoo nutritionists and feed manufacturers in the world.
Once we'd figured out the issues -the deciding factors behind mortality and infertility, we knew we'd finally discovered a few solutions to what seemed to be insurmountable challenges. To be clear, every one of the problems of a given species captive management have not been solved. Some critical ones have been. Indeed, the captive populations of our target species have increased exponentially.
Getting back to science fact-feed trials, protein analysis- amino acid profiles-
Amino Acid Profile Analysis is how zoo nutritionists discovered that leading brands of gamebird and turkey feeds were no longer adequate for certain rare and endangered subtropical pheasant and pheasant-like species ( like peafowl, fireback pheasants, green junglefowl and ocellated turkeys for example). The birds reproductive health had been declining for more than a decade in some situations and private aviculturists were dealing with the same issues. Mortality of females, moulting males; juveniles and sub-adults were also major topics that deserved scientific examination. We needed rigorous experimentation- versus guessing and posturing; pointing fingers, designating blame etc.
The analysis trials began with Indian Peafowl and Ring Necked Pheasants; White Rocks and Bronze Domestic Turkeys.
The flocks were delineated into different groups and fed different diets. The diets with steamed soybean meal as their primary protein source were of particular interest because, as I have stated several times previously in several different threads, feed manufacturers pulled animal proteins like fish and bone meal as a means of increasing their profit margins, beginning with layer and broiler feeds. It had been determined that domestic species with very short life spans ( five weeks to ~ two years ) thrived on the new formulations. It was a mark of genius by the poultry scientists and their feed manufacturers. Nevertheless, these changes in formulation were also made for gamebirds. This made quite a lot of sense given the fact that gamebird feeds made up ~ 5% of overall sales for the three major USA feed manufacturers. In other words, the major feed manufacturers don't sell much gamebird feed. Their money is made in broiler and egg layer feeds. Birds expected to have long,( 5-35 year lifespans) productive lives simply don't thrive over the long term. Mycoplasma infections are on the rise. You'll be hard pressed to find a single collection that doesn't suffer from one infection or another. The birds are becoming increasingly immune deficient. The captive habitat is a big part of that. Dusty pellets and mashes mixing with big wet droppings loaded with undigested feedstuffs- smearing all over the feet and feathers of birds- well it's a mess naturally.
Getting back to feed trials
Their droppings were analysed using very specific methods, which have been used for more than fifty years-by poultry scientists and livestock feed manufacturers. It was determined that Bronze Turkeys are capable of utilising vegetable proteins more efficiently than any of the other species in the trials. Ring Necked Pheasants and White Rocks were completely digesting ~ 10 less of the same amino acids that domestic Turkeys were. Indian Peafowl were the least efficient, thoroughly digesting ~ 20 % less than domestic Turkeys. Once we started experimenting with different feed formulations we generated more optimal nutrition for a wide range of species.
The Agriocharis or Ocellated Turkey does not thrive, in captivity, on diets formulated for Domestic Turkeys because the two respective Turkey species have very different life histories. The Ocellated Turkey lives in a subtropical environment year round. Consequently, the species is able to forage on invertebrates all year round. Conversely, North American Wild Turkeys, those progenitors of the familiar Domestic Turkey, live in temperate climates. Because their habitats experience dramatic weather oscillations, including winter, the Wild Turkey cannot live on invertebrates all year round. Instead, they are adapted to forage on plant materials that are also high in crude proteins, proteins that the Agriocharis cannot metabolise with any of the same efficiency. Wild Turkeys are more highly adapted more highly evolved than the primitive ancestor (Agriocharis) from which they are derived. The Agriocharis Turkeys died out in North America during the Pleistocene, possibly because they could not procure their nutritional requirements.
No one knows for certain why Agriocharis died out in North America, while its cousin Meleagris thrived.
What I do know is that serious aviculturists for many decades more experience than I have- use UltraKibble exclusively.
UltraKibble is a supplement. Its added to whatever your favorite maintenance diet is.
It's an optimal bundle of nutrition that makes captive birds appear as if they are wild caught because of the entire nutrient package- the micronutrients, macronutrients, fatty acids, entire amino acide profile- the whole deal. If you'd like to see a white peacock become iridescent feed your breeding pair UltraKibble- at a 50% ratio to maintenance feed. Count how many chicks hatch out of your clutch from that pair and compare that to a pair on the diet you've maintained them on previously. Mark the birds clearly so you can compare and contrast them as they age. Which chicks develop iridescent plumage? Let us know. If you decide not to try the feed there really isn't any point in criticizing it now is there? Ignorance is only bliss when you keep it yourself.
I'm confident that the proof is in the results, in the science.
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Well, I see it took you all day long to do your research so you wouldn't look bad in front of 60,000 viewers so people would think you really do know what your talking about. Maybe we should ask some Zoos what they think.
Since this thread belongs to someone else, I think maybe we should show some respect and turn it back over to them.
Since this thread belongs to someone else, I think maybe we should show some respect and turn it back over to them.
Last edited by a moderator:
Quote:
Ask some zoos what they think? Who do you think purchases tons of UltraKibble every year?
Zoos are where are some of our most important ongoing feed trials are undertaken. It took me all day to do what? What is your objective here ?
Ask some zoos what they think? Who do you think purchases tons of UltraKibble every year?
Zoos are where are some of our most important ongoing feed trials are undertaken. It took me all day to do what? What is your objective here ?
Last edited:
Quote:
Ask some zoos what they think? Who do you think purchases tons of UltraKibble every year?
Zoos are where are some of our most important ongoing feed trials are undertaken. It took me all day to do what? What is your objective here ?
Ask some zoos what they think? Who do you think purchases tons of UltraKibble every year?
Zoos are where are some of our most important ongoing feed trials are undertaken. It took me all day to do what? What is your objective here ?
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow, very sad!
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