Solar Space heat and rainwater catchment systems...

[corvidae]

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That's actually the site I've found the most information on and I continue to comb over it almost daily to get ideas. It really is an awesome site and seems fairly impartial to me. They deal with some livestock issues (larger livestock) that I think can be adapted well for keeping chickens. Good to know others are finding the information there workable! Thanks!

 

[corvidae]

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Well, the objective, I think, is to keep the temp in the coop above freezing via solar space heating, meaning it would have to be around 35 degrees minimum (preferably closer to 40 degrees). If the water collectors as well as the distribution pipes were inner-coop in that case, it might solve the water-nipple freeze up issue. Alternatively, I'm toying with the idea of an extension on the coop--basically a shed built on to the coop--that would actually be constructed as a solar space heater as well as a storage area for the rainwater catchment barrels. Theoretically (oh, I just LOVE theory!), it would keep both the water and the coops from hitting freezing levels during the day, and the major insulation of the same would keep it from dropping too low at night, though I seriously question that latter part,, not having any real life experience in the matter. In that shed, I also am thinking of putting compost--the DLM from the coop when I dig it all out in fall. As compost gives off a certain amount of heat itself, that might tip the balance in the direction I want. From the built on shed, the pipes would run into the coop, but not TOO far in. I reason that longer pipes simply provide more area to freeze.

Externally, the collection system itself is a major concern to me--if the drainage system freezes up, that pretty much blows the whole deal. Doesn't matter how warm the distribution and collection system stays if no water can get to it. I agree with you that there will certainly be drippage, so to speak--it's just a matter of whether ice damming will stop it from getting to the catchment system. Short of clearing them each day (which is impractical under the circumstances and rather defeats the whole point of this), I'm a little stumped on how to prevent this. Non-insulated roofing sounds like the best bet, allowing heat from the coop to melt things off. I had originally thought of running some kind of low-level heat tape off battery power, but that doesn't look practical so far and appears to be a significant fire risk? I also thought of using solar power to design a melt off system, but even with battery storage, I have to wonder whether weather conditions will make that too erratic to be useable. Unfortunately, I've not messed around with solar power before, so this is all very new to me.

Remember, we will not actually be at the coop on a daily basis--more like 3 days out of the week. So whatever system we come up with has to be at least moderately self-sufficient. I can certainly have someone haul water in there multiple times a week while I cover the other days (and I have, in fact, looked into that option as a back-up plan), but as that tends to be expensive and clumsy, I would much prefer to come up with a workable self-sufficient model. I'm fairly certain I'll be spending more time at the coop the first winter or two than I intended--just out of paranoia and tweaking the system--such is life.

 

[patandchickens]

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Oh really? Gee. I missed that somehow in your posts.

That's going to be a bit of a challenge if you are using a typical 4-sq-ft-apiece type stocking density; also I'm not sure it's a worthwhile goal, since it is actually really EASY to just set out a new thing of liquid water every morning.

I gotta tell you, w/r/t keeping the temp above freezing, I know I live in a somewhat colder climate than you do (our record low has been -30 F since we've lived here; a more typical "one of the coldest nights of the year" would be in the minus teens F), HOWEVER despite a pretty much *ideal* situation for passively heating the coop (15x40' slab-floored building with only ~2-3 dozen chickens in it and 6" stud walls full o' insulation and a heavily insulated drop ceiling, plus a 4x8x8 passive solar heater, and b/c of the low chicken population relative to building size I typically run NO ventilation in wintertime other than two popdoors during the day) IT STILL spends 2-3 months of the winter below freezing in there. Not *much* below freezing, I believe this year the lowest temp was 23 F and that was during the day with popdoors open and a stiff cold wind blowing in... but below freezing nonetheless.

Your coop is not going to have these advantages -- the sheer SIZE of mine, coupled with the slab floor and the double-thick walls. (I am not bragging, I didn't *build* the thing and wouldn't'a bothered if I *had*, it was here as a breeding/boarding kennel when we bought the place

)

So although you can add more collector area than I use, you would have to match it with extreme insulation AND thermal mass in order to have any hope of staying above freezing, and honestly I do not think that is realistic unless you can virtually eliminate ventilation, which you just CAN'T (healthfully) do unless you have super super low stocking densities.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to point out the difficulties you face and suggest having a plan B.

Externally, the collection system itself is a major concern to me--if the drainage system freezes up, that pretty much blows the whole deal. Doesn't matter how warm the distribution and collection system stays if no water can get to it. I agree with you that there will certainly be drippage, so to speak--it's just a matter of whether ice damming will stop it from getting to the catchment system.

The "let it drip into a bucket, then take the bucket into the coop every afternoon" method works great for me, it is pretty foolproof. However, if you cannot do that and must have an inlet *directly into the above-freezing storage system* I fear you may be s.o.l without the availability of electricity. The main problem is that having that open-to-the-outdoors pipe is going to let lotsa cold air into your storage tank and make it require EXTRA-much heating to stay liquid. If it weren't for that, you could just make the collection pipe black and on the sunward side and it would probably be fine most of the time -- but I am skeptical about the effect on the storage barrel with that constant path for heat loss.

Non-insulated roofing sounds like the best bet, allowing heat from the coop to melt things off.

Not if you have no electric power for the coop and want the coop to stay above freezing inside!!

The best way to encourage melting on a metal roof IME, if it is reluctant, is to reach up with a roof-rake (or broom or whatever) and expose however much bare roof as you can. It will heat up and start melting the adjacent areas, which will then melt the areas adjacent to *them*, etc etc.

Remember, we will not actually be at the coop on a daily basis--more like 3 days out of the week.

Oh my, I did not realize that, that is going to be difficult. Will there at least be someone to CHECK them daily? Otherwise I'd be very, very concerned about waterer malfunction and dead chickens. One way to hedge against that is to leave a pan of snow in the coop (when it is below freezing in there, obviously) -- yes, it is not a *great* source of water and increases their feed requirements, but it is valuable as an emergency resource to eliminate risk of death. Doesn't take long at all without water -- most sources say 36 hours ish, obviously I have no firsthand experience of it -- to kill a chicken. Not to mention the whole "the door blew open" "a chicken is being pecked to death" etc type issue.

Good luck,

Pat​

 

[corvidae]

We actually do have a plan B (as well as Plan C, since I've usually found Plan B can also fail in life). This is all, of course, in the planning phase and looking into various options, discarding those that aren't feasible, etc. Perhaps it would behoove us to look into setting up a solar system with deep cycle batteries in order to provide electricity to the coops in addition to using passive solar space. As our winters do not get as cold as yours obviously do, we would not have to bring the temp up as far as you do, of course. Nonetheless, we are certainly planning a rather high degree of insulation. Don't have a slab to put the coop on, but again, using DLM composting does actually provide a small amount of heat in and of itself. Whether that amount is significant at all in the equation, without actually building a mountain of compost, still remains highly questionable.

In your experience with using the passive solar heating space, have you possibly used a solar powered vent fan at all to move the heated air into the coop? I am wondering how efficient/helpful that is (or not). External rainwater collection system aside, my main concern remains keeping the coop above freezing. I can always have the water delivered, if necessary, or simply take a sufficient amount for a couple of days up there myself. I saw a explanation of solar passive heating used on an ice-fishing shack that apparently worked rather well but the gent who made it used a recirculating system that I am still attempting to figure out. Kept the shack at about 75 degrees at midpoint with external freezing temps. The shack, of course, is much smaller than a coop would be, but theoretically the principle remains the same, just on a larger scale. The method also appears to have the side benefit of providing ventilation to the building--heated warm air pushed while cold internal air is drawn out. Is this the sort of deal you already have set up? If so, it sounds like it clearly won't do the job.

 

[patandchickens]

It would all be EVER so much easier if you were not trying to keep the whole darn coop above freezing. I truthfully do not think you can do that in an even-remotely-economical way, even in your climate, without SEVERELY compromising ventilation (and maybe not even if you DID severely compromise ventilation requirements, if you aren't going to have a slab or dirt floor).

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Nope, I haven't, because just the natural thermosiphon gives such a good air flow thru the collector space. HOWEVER you will be REQUIRED to use a solar powered vent fan if you are going to have this thing operating on its own, because otherwise you gotta be there every day when the collector temp gets above coop temp to open the two openings, and be there every day to close them when the collector temp drops below coop temp. A simple flap (plastic film and grate) isn't enough when heat-retention is important... which is not just my climate, it is yours too. So you will HAVE to have a thermostatically-controlled fan with reasonably 'tight' operable louvers on both openings, so that you do not get backflow and "air-conditioning" when it's colder in the collector.

my main concern remains keeping the coop above freezing

Why? Because of the nipples? Would it not be simpler to rig a solar-and-battery operated system to heat the waterers enough to keep the nipples working? It would cost some money but it would WORK, and most of the time not burn your coop down if you did it right, whereas as I say quite honestly I simply do not think you can DO it otherwise.

Kept the shack at about 75 degrees at midpoint with external freezing temps. The shack, of course, is much smaller than a coop would be, but theoretically the principle remains the same, just on a larger scale.

Except that you have to have ventilation in a chicken coop.

The method also appears to have the side benefit of providing ventilation to the building--heated warm air pushed while cold internal air is drawn out. Is this the sort of deal you already have set up? If so, it sounds like it clearly won't do the job.

Are you suuuuuure he is heating exterior air. Because if he is keeping an ice-fishing shack at 75 *all night*, I can almost guarantee he is just heating and recirculating the *interior* air (which is what I do too). (Actually I am a bit skeptical that anyone is keeping an ice fishing shack at 75 F all night, period. During the day, easy peasy no problem whatsoever; at 5 a.m., hmmmm. For one thing, would it not melt itself down thru the ice....)

Just sayin', but, good luck to you,

Pat​