Solid neck vs pearled neck pattern?

[bemba]

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Hi TatersChickens if I could I would give you any amount of feather from the sex linked cinnamons and the other colours but our laws prevent that. Can I ask what you use them for?

Hi there and welcome!!! Great to see another guinea nutter from Oz.... LOL Where abouts are you? Maybe we could compare notes on our birds? I noticed in this post that you say sex-linked, and was quite curious because my red-eyed birds are recessive, anyway maybe we can swap pics to see how different our cinnamons are, so many different mutations and so little time lol.

 

[ozguineafowl]

Hi there Bemba and welcome to you. I am in Australia where are you? Yes like everyones I know mine are sex linked anyway yours must be different somehow

 

[rollyard]

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It does not take a geneticist &/or the use of molecular biology techniques to determine mode of inheritance, state of a specific factor/s for a recognisable trait/s, nor whether polygenic involvement such as that for Silver in Guineas. In fact many researched studies have been conducted by observing breeding outcomes through breeding experiments very successfully. If you read around many of the poultry forums you will see everyday breeders making these observations in their own yards all of the time. To suggest that only a geneticist & modern “under the microscope” techniques are required is naïve to say the least! A couple of examples of research conducted in the field, for example, Here & Here but there are many more out there if you care to research! Interestingly, both mutations for Guineas in the second article have never been mapped according to the OIMA Here. There are many more examples of traits/ mutations that have never been mapped across the species!

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That is correct, Silver Guineas in Australia are I currently believe the product of two mutations in pure form combined. Have a read of the following taken from Here . There are also a few breeders co-operating & performing ongoing research to support & consolidate current views, findings, some of which can be found Here
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We don’t know this yet, the very reason we are attempting to discuss same in a civilised manner. If you have more advanced knowledge, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us by providing reasonable support!
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This does not make sense! The neck feathers are relevant to the feather pattern? The feather pattern of what? It is the pattern of the neck feathers currently under discussion in this thread. How do you know that one of these “neck patterns” isn’t a mutation nor dominant/recessive to the other? You seem to forget that I have bred the two types together & only one neck pattern type produced in progeny!
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Well, you live & learn! Even us young pups can teach you old dogs new tricks. And “down” isn’t just down @ all. Down, like feather & plumage globally, can & does occur in different patterns as well as different colours! Various patterns occur across many poultry species in both the chick down & adult plumage. The pigments (or lack of them) make the colour, but the distribution of the different colours make the patterns! Have a look @ some chicken down patterns as an example Here.
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And TBs (know how much you just love to play games with that term) can be Pearl Grey too. Why not light pieds, your happy to call excessively white birds reverse pied aren’t you? There is nothing wrong with using light pied to describe birds that are, well, lightly pied!
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No need to edit mistake because, well, there is no mistake. Please refer to above links but in a nut shell:
1/ Cinnamon is a recessive (autosomal), so cinnamon birds are pure for the gene!
2/ Silver has been bred out of pure for Cinnamon birds, so Silver also pure for cinnamon gene! But some other hidden factor has altered phenotype for Silvers thus bred! Here
3/ Lavender is an autosomal recessive, so two doses required to make a lavender bird!
4/ Silver x Lavender has produced Lavender keets, so Silver must have Lavender to have produced these lavender keets, because two doses required to do so!
5/ Silver x Cinnamon has produced Cinnamon keets, so Silver must have cinnamon factor because being an auto recessive, two doses required!
If you work methodically through the above you will make the links, & therefore see quite clearly that Silver is the result of two auto recessive mutations in pure form, that for Cinnamon & that Lavender! Naturally, further testing to consolidate required!
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When did Cinnamon Guineas first appear? You know I have already asked this very question Here! It is strange that you are now claiming that cinnamon is unique to Australia because for so long on your own site you have been claiming its genetics are the same as birds overseas? If you think long enough I am sure you will be able to work out the rest of the question for yourself!
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No idea what you are talking about here?
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No idea what you are talking about here?
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Good colour/pattern means colour/pattern which is consistent with that required for the breed/variety in question!
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Feather pattern is the pattern, ie, distribution of colour to create pattern. Secondary colour (eg diluters) can be added. For example, we see TB patterned keets in brown, buff, lavender etc. We also see striped pattern keets in brown, buff, lavender etc!
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No it doesn’t, because as has already been mentioned by myself elsewhere, the red-eyed Cinnamon (& Silver) are unique to Australia. Different also in the factor for cinnamon’ mode of transmission, ie, not sex-linked as reported overseas, & by yourself. The factor here is autosomally transmitted. And I would doubt there are two similar factors @ work!
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As mentioned, the factor for our Cinnamon trait here in Australia is proving to be autosomally transmitted, & not on the Z chromosome, so not like "everyones" @ all! Quite a few breeders in Oz are finding through their own observations that the factor for Cinnamon is autosomally transmitted, & not sex-linked!

 

[PeepsCA]

Long post rollyard, lol, but you answered (or asked) almost all of the questions that came to my mind when I read and re-read this whole thread. The detail you always go into and links you provide when explaining the GF genetic side of things makes it a lot easier for those of us small time backyard breeders (newbies, lol) that just mainly breed for variety and fun to get a better grasp on how the GF genetics actually work (at least it's helping me anyway!). Thanks for bringing a little clarity to the table...

and also for pointing out that just because one breeder gets a certain set of results out of their flock does not mean those results are set in stone as "Guinea Law" for everyone else

 

[mr bellmere]

Hi guys, the big bad wolf dropped in to say hi. Thanks for the link Rollyard.
I would like to intro myself, am a breeder from Australia, keeping guinea fowl inc the cinnamons, sebastopol geese & a few other bits & bobs.
so like Rolly, Bemba & a few other we are mad guinea nuts, & trying to help fellow breeders here in australia breed some of the elusive colours, like cins.

Am going to finish reading this topic in full but have picked up we seem to have a few trolls visiting.

Edited to say, I kind of set the challenge to people here in Australia to get the cinnamon guineas & find the outcomes of breeding these birds, having bred them for a few years myself & find they are not sex linked, however after being called a lot of names under the sun, more breeders are coming out & saying what supported my findings, I am not into genetics, Rolly does that part better than me as I get lost with the x's & i's ect.
We have a "breeder" here proclaiming they have a lot of different colours, have been breeding them for years & have sold 100s of birds Australia wide, however, nobody has ever been able to buy birds from them, yes we have a good size country here, no the poultry community isnt that big that somebody would know somebody that has bought some of the 100s of birds from the "breeder".
In the short, have contacted breeders from O/S a few years ago about the different colours of guinea fowl after finding not much help here in OZ & unfortunately not much came from it, am hoping to learn a little more this time round & look forward to meeting you all.

 

[ozguineafowl]

Quote:
It does not take a geneticist &/or the use of molecular biology techniques to determine mode of inheritance, state of a specific factor/s for a recognisable trait/s, nor whether polygenic involvement such as that for Silver in Guineas. In fact many researched studies have been conducted by observing breeding outcomes through breeding experiments very successfully. If you read around many of the poultry forums you will see everyday breeders making these observations in their own yards all of the time. To suggest that only a geneticist & modern “under the microscope” techniques are required is naïve to say the least! A couple of examples of research conducted in the field, for example, Here & Here but there are many more out there if you care to research! Interestingly, both mutations for Guineas in the second article have never been mapped according to the OIMA Here. There are many more examples of traits/ mutations that have never been mapped across the species!

Quote:
That is correct, Silver Guineas in Australia are I currently believe the product of two mutations in pure form combined. Have a read of the following taken from Here . There are also a few breeders co-operating & performing ongoing research to support & consolidate current views, findings, some of which can be found Here
Quote:
We don’t know this yet, the very reason we are attempting to discuss same in a civilised manner. If you have more advanced knowledge, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us by providing reasonable support!
Quote:
This does not make sense! The neck feathers are relevant to the feather pattern? The feather pattern of what? It is the pattern of the neck feathers currently under discussion in this thread. How do you know that one of these “neck patterns” isn’t a mutation nor dominant/recessive to the other? You seem to forget that I have bred the two types together & only one neck pattern type produced in progeny!
Quote:
Well, you live & learn! Even us young pups can teach you old dogs new tricks. And “down” isn’t just down @ all. Down, like feather & plumage globally, can & does occur in different patterns as well as different colours! Various patterns occur across many poultry species in both the chick down & adult plumage. The pigments (or lack of them) make the colour, but the distribution of the different colours make the patterns! Have a look @ some chicken down patterns as an example Here.
Quote:
And TBs (know how much you just love to play games with that term) can be Pearl Grey too. Why not light pieds, your happy to call excessively white birds reverse pied aren’t you? There is nothing wrong with using light pied to describe birds that are, well, lightly pied!
Quote:
No need to edit mistake because, well, there is no mistake. Please refer to above links but in a nut shell:
1/ Cinnamon is a recessive (autosomal), so cinnamon birds are pure for the gene!
2/ Silver has been bred out of pure for Cinnamon birds, so Silver also pure for cinnamon gene! But some other hidden factor has altered phenotype for Silvers thus bred! Here
3/ Lavender is an autosomal recessive, so two doses required to make a lavender bird!
4/ Silver x Lavender has produced Lavender keets, so Silver must have Lavender to have produced these lavender keets, because two doses required to do so!
5/ Silver x Cinnamon has produced Cinnamon keets, so Silver must have cinnamon factor because being an auto recessive, two doses required!
If you work methodically through the above you will make the links, & therefore see quite clearly that Silver is the result of two auto recessive mutations in pure form, that for Cinnamon & that Lavender! Naturally, further testing to consolidate required!
Quote:
When did Cinnamon Guineas first appear? You know I have already asked this very question Here! It is strange that you are now claiming that cinnamon is unique to Australia because for so long on your own site you have been claiming its genetics are the same as birds overseas? If you think long enough I am sure you will be able to work out the rest of the question for yourself!
Quote:
No idea what you are talking about here?
Quote:
No idea what you are talking about here?
Quote:
Good colour/pattern means colour/pattern which is consistent with that required for the breed/variety in question!
Quote:
Feather pattern is the pattern, ie, distribution of colour to create pattern. Secondary colour (eg diluters) can be added. For example, we see TB patterned keets in brown, buff, lavender etc. We also see striped pattern keets in brown, buff, lavender etc!
Quote:
No it doesn’t, because as has already been mentioned by myself elsewhere, the red-eyed Cinnamon (& Silver) are unique to Australia. Different also in the factor for cinnamon’ mode of transmission, ie, not sex-linked as reported overseas, & by yourself. The factor here is autosomally transmitted. And I would doubt there are two similar factors @ work!
Quote:
As mentioned, the factor for our Cinnamon trait here in Australia is proving to be autosomally transmitted, & not on the Z chromosome, so not like "everyones" @ all! Quite a few breeders in Oz are finding through their own observations that the factor for Cinnamon is autosomally transmitted, & not sex-linked!

Impressive long post and lots of google there WOW! yes your right a couple do believe the gene is recessive and yes most know its sex linked but to I guess we can only try to advice the young kids hey.

Silver in not from lavender not sure which site you googled for that?

I have also sent a few PM to balance out

 

[ozguineafowl]

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Who's this breeder please name them?

mr bellmere I have not seen any trolls do you know them well?

 

[perchie.girl]

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Hi from San Diego mr bellmere and

I am a relative newbie to guineas hear to learn.....

 

[rollyard]

Mr Bellmere. Perhaps when time permits you could tell us about the type of neck pattern/s in your birds

 

[lcw1995]

mr bellmere and perhaps post some pics?

btw