Spiral Breeding genetics question.

[sekeyslaks]

Hello I've been reading a lot about breeding methods and color genetics because I want to try making my own unique chickens for my family and I like the Spiral plan the best so far.Now recently I've been giving myself a headache trying to only choose 3 of my favorite breeds for the 3 Lines needed.(I have so many favorites)...And Ive been playing around with the breeds I like in the chicken calculator and a light bulb popped in my head when I was experimenting! Would using different color varieties of the same breed in a line give me more genetic diversity?Like if I wanted both Brown and Silver Leghorns as part of Line A?I love having different color options but I'm worried whether genetically I would just make inbreeding in that line worse since they are from the same breed.Any thoughts?

 

[3riverschick]

Well you need more knowledge than this is you are going to make a new breed. Being blunt is a fault of mine but hopefully it will save you a lot of dollars and grief.
Would using different color varieties of the same breed in a line give me more genetic diversity? More diversity in color but not necessarily more diversity in other breed traits. It all depends on how distantly the birds are related. Like if I wanted both Brown and Silver Leghorns as part of Line A?I love having different color options but I'm worried whether genetically I would just make inbreeding in that line worse since they are from the same breed. Any thoughts? Yes, that is a concern, the inbreeding, I mean.
You must know how to select judiciously. Do you know how closely related the birds are? Can you get a heritage on them from the breeder? if you are going to breed for color, you need to carefully select for breed type also. egg, meat, dual purpose. Otherwise you'll end up with some ugly birds with pretty color.
Also many hallmarks of breed type are closely connected with the production virtues. So if you want your birds to be layers, there is a specific body type for that. If you want meat birds, then there is a body structure just for that. , also a body type for dual purpose bird.
Best,
Karen

 

[miss heny]

Posting to keep a eye on this thread

 

[bishopofchaos]

Ok I have a question 3riverschick. When it comes to body type on a dual purpose breed, can you get a hen that's "built" for laying and her sister built for meat? I thought the point of the dual purpose breeds were to be good for BOTH at one time, not either or... I've noticed that in my barred rocks, sometimes I get a rooster that has a weird growth gene I thought. The chick grows much faster, and seems to continue to grow to a bulkier size, even after the rest of his hatch mates have reached their peak. Is this a meat bird characteristic coming back thru? Thank you for your time!

 

[sekeyslaks]

Well you need more knowledge than this is you are going to make a new breed. Being blunt is a fault of mine but hopefully it will save you a lot of dollars and grief.
Would using different color varieties of the same breed in a line give me more genetic diversity? More diversity in color but not necessarily more diversity in other breed traits. It all depends on how distantly the birds are related. Like if I wanted both Brown and Silver Leghorns as part of Line A?I love having different color options but I'm worried whether genetically I would just make inbreeding in that line worse since they are from the same breed. Any thoughts? Yes, that is a concern, the inbreeding, I mean.
You must know how to select judiciously. Do you know how closely related the birds are? Can you get a heritage on them from the breeder? if you are going to breed for color, you need to carefully select for breed type also. egg, meat, dual purpose. Otherwise you'll end up with some ugly birds with pretty color.
Also many hallmarks of breed type are closely connected with the production virtues. So if you want your birds to be layers, there is a specific body type for that. If you want meat birds, then there is a body structure just for that. , also a body type for dual purpose bird.
Best,
Karen

Yes I need more instruction for sure,bluntness is something I admire and employ myself many times. I agree that the key to my plan would be how distant the birds are from each other.I had been planning to buy my birds from a hatchery but I think now that I should try finding a breeder source too.I know how to select judiciously and cull ruthlessly for the traits I want,and the traits I'm breeding for are more important than color(I just like different colors so I can experiment!XD) I plan on breeding a duel-purpose bird.but I would like better egg production so I want to introduce Leghorn's..so kind of a best of both worlds bird with a slighter build for egg-laying but enough meat for frying. at least that's the idea..

 

[3riverschick]

Yes I need more instruction for sure,bluntness is something I admire and employ myself many times. I agree that the key to my plan would be how distant the birds are from each other.I had been planning to buy my birds from a hatchery but I think now that I should try finding a breeder source too.I know how to select judiciously and cull ruthlessly for the traits I want,and the traits I'm breeding for are more important than color(I just like different colors so I can experiment!XD) I plan on breeding a duel-purpose bird.but I would like better egg production so I want to introduce Leghorn's..so kind of a best of both worlds bird with a slighter build for egg-laying but enough meat for frying. at least that's the idea..

I agree with finding your birds from a breeder. the gene pools from a vintage line-bred SQ strain will be more stable and you will have a much better chance of melding the characteristics each breed is known for. You mean something like an Ancona breed? A dual purpose with a bent towards egg laying?
Best,
Karen

 

[3riverschick]

sekeyslaks,
Have you considered this breed? It sounds like the traits you value. It is very critical and urgently needs fanciers and breeders to help continue redevelop it. Yes, it is a white bird but who says the breed can't have a colored variety? Note the "root stock as for the original Lamona: Leghorns, Dorkings and Rocks." there's your Leghorn and a super meat bird in the Dorking, plus a great classic dual purpose breed in the Rocks. Perhaps you could borrow a color from one of those breeds and meld it in for a colored variety?
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Lamona/BRKLamona.html
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/518722/lamona-chicken-fanciers-thread
Best,
Karen

 

[sekeyslaks]

sekeyslaks,
Have you considered this breed? It sounds like the traits you value. It is very critical and urgently needs fanciers and breeders to help continue redevelop it. Yes, it is a white bird but who says the breed can't have a colored variety? Note the "root stock as for the original Lamona: Leghorns, Dorkings and Rocks." there's your Leghorn and a super meat bird in the Dorking, plus a great classic dual purpose breed in the Rocks. Perhaps you could borrow a color from the Rocks and meld it in for a colored variety?
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Lamona/BRKLamona.html
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/518722/lamona-chicken-fanciers-thread
Best,
Karen

I have never heard of that breed!It sounds wonderful,but I would definitely have to change that whiteness otherwise those poor birds would be my neighbors the raccoons dinner.X) I'll think about this for now.

 

[3riverschick]

I have never heard of that breed!It sounds wonderful,but I would definitely have to change that whiteness otherwise those poor birds would be my neighbors the raccoons dinner.X) I'll think about this for now.

I was just reading the first URL above. the breed had a second color variety ! ( I didn't know this) : "The second variety of this project is a Pyle colored fowl" I am sure they are probably extinct now and need recreated. It is a very challenging color.
Or some other one of your choosing.
Harry Lamon, the breed's creator, was one of the greatest poultry minds of the last century.
Best,
Karen

 

[Wappoke]

Hello I've been reading a lot about breeding methods and color genetics because I want to try making my own unique chickens for my family and I like the Spiral plan the best so far.Now recently I've been giving myself a headache trying to only choose 3 of my favorite breeds for the 3 Lines needed.(I have so many favorites)...And Ive been playing around with the breeds I like in the chicken calculator and a light bulb popped in my head when I was experimenting! Would using different color varieties of the same breed in a line give me more genetic diversity?Like if I wanted both Brown and Silver Leghorns as part of Line A?I love having different color options but I'm worried whether genetically I would just make inbreeding in that line worse since they are from the same breed.Any thoughts?

In order to breed for a unique chicken, you must first decide what characteristics you want in your chicken. For example, if you want a crest on your chickens, you have to use a breed that has a crest. (this example was simplistic in order to make my point) When breeding, you have to take into account sex linkage, dominant traits vs recessive traits, incomplete dominance, polygenetics, epistasis, gene linkage and etc,. A well thought out plan will get you to your goal much faster.

Decide what characteristics you want in your breed /variety then choose the birds that have the characteristics. Then develop your strategy.

Inbreeding is not a problem with chickens. If you are concerned about inbreeding after you develop your breed then do the spiral breeding to maintain vigor.