Stalking = bullying, correct?

[thecatumbrella]

We're having some serious bully issues, and I want to make sure I'm looking at this properly and not overreacting.

It's my understanding that pecking order is:
- squaring off with mild pecks, chest bumps, or kicks, then going about your business
- pecking another bird to get them out of your personal space
- giving "the look" to tell another bird to back off

In other words, pecking order is a brief interaction between chickens. Once a "winner" has been established, the body language between them is clear. A lower chicken will bow or leave, and the dominate chicken will hold her ground.

What is NOT pecking order (ie. bullying, in my opinion):
- continually stalking another bird around the pen
- repeatedly pecking and kicking at a bird that's giving submissive body language
- pulling out feathers or going for blood

I imagine these lines are blurred a bit when integrating new birds, but I would not expect the second batch of behaviors from brooder mates unless there were serious space or resource issues.

Am I off base here? How much of the latter behaviors do you tolerate before intervening?

Tagging a few of our resident chicken whisperers that always have thoughtful takes on bird behavior.
@azygous @Ridgerunner @rosemarythyme

 

[azygous]

You bring up an interesting topic dear to my heart - chicken behavior. Related to this is chicken psychology. Trying to understand these interrelated things has been my passion since I first got chickens.

You're on track understanding that settling social order differences is one thing, while bullying is another. The key to controlling bullying is understanding that the bully chicken and the victim have a symbiotic relationship. One's pathology feeds off the other's pathology.

Read this article I wrote on this subject and we can discuss it further. https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/chicken-bully-chicken-victim-a-two-sided-issue.73923/

 

[thecatumbrella]

You bring up an interesting topic dear to my heart - chicken behavior. Related to this is chicken psychology. Trying to understand these interrelated things has been my passion since I first got chickens.

You're on track understanding that settling social order differences is one thing, while bullying is another. The key to controlling bullying is understanding that the bully chicken and the victim have a symbiotic relationship. One's pathology feeds off the other's pathology.

Read this article I wrote on this subject and we can discuss it further. https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/chicken-bully-chicken-victim-a-two-sided-issue.73923/

Oh I practically have that article memorized!

Your jail setup would be a best case scenario for someone like Willow. Not only because she is traditionally a higher ranking bird (like your Geobett), but because her neurological condition requires regular medication and unhindered access to food and water (it sometimes takes her a few attempts).

Now the issue I've been trying to troubleshoot is creating the necessary space in my particular pen. The best I could offer her is a maybe a 24-inch x 36-inch crate. My run isn't overly spacious (9'x18') and the entire front and left-side walls get damp in the rain and cooked in the sun, so location is critical for a longer term rehab. Because of this, I've been more focused on rehabbing the bully. The basement isolation area is quite large (3'x8'). But I'd be interested to hear your thoughts!

 

[azygous]

You really are cramped on space. I'm spoiled with acreage so I can keep expanding my run over the years. But your crate could work in a pinch.

Since it's still a possibility that the bully can abuse the victim hen through the sides of the crate, I would place something on two sides so the hen has safety from attacks from those two sides.

On removing the bully, this can open up more issues as the bully is reintroduced. But you can try it and see how it works. My opinion is it's better to keep the two adversaries in the run together so that their relationship can be directly altered by the dynamic of the victim having safety while she regains self confidence while the bully is observing this change in her behavior which will have an effect on the bully's behavior. Do you follow?

 

[thecatumbrella]

You really are cramped on space. I'm spoiled with acreage so I can keep expanding my run over the years. But your crate could work in a pinch.

Since it's still a possibility that the bully can abuse the victim hen through the sides of the crate, I would place something on two sides so the hen has safety from attacks from those two sides.

On removing the bully, this can open up more issues as the bully is reintroduced. But you can try it and see how it works. My opinion is it's better to keep the two adversaries in the run together so that their relationship can be directly altered by the dynamic of the victim having safety while she regains self confidence while the bully is observing this change in her behavior which will have an effect on the bully's behavior. Do you follow?

Won't bore you with the details, but the space is a nightmare. Part of me wonders if I'm just not meant to keep chickens at this property.

I will absolutely hardware cloth any enclosure, so no worries there.

As to the bully, I follow your logic. I'll likely have to reintegrate her if I continue to isolate. Even in my limited experience, I've seen the pecking order reshuffle within the hour of a bird being removed. And it could all be for nothing if she harbors the same resentment towards Willow (the victim), and Willow doesn't fight back.

Sounds like I need to work on amending the pen somehow. That will take time. I really did not expect this level of behavior from juvenile birds (or from cochin bantams!), so unfortunately, I've been caught with my figurative pants down. I need to create an in-the-run broody jail anyway. This just gives me a head start incentive.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I would not expect the second batch of behaviors from brooder mates unless there were serious space or resource issues.

You may not expect it but it can happen. I had a 2-week-old chick kill a hatchmate by pecking it on the head. After it killed that one it started on a second chick. That's when I saw what was going on and intervened.

I was raising 19 cockerels, all hatchmates about 15 weeks old. Out of the blue one cockerel took an intense dislike of one specific cockerel. It attacked and killed it. After that the other 18 cockerels got along OK until they were butchered. They had normal squabbles but none were injured. Fighting wasn't that serious. It was just between those two.

In both cases this happened outside where they had multiple feed and water stations and over 2,000 square feet. Neither space nor resources were an issue.

One thing I constantly repeat on here is that each chicken has its own personality. They are generally flock animals and can get along, but occasionally you get one that just cannot get along with another one. Some humans are serial killers while other humans are humanitarians, most are in between. We do not live in an ideal world where everything has an easy peaceful conclusion.

My run isn't overly spacious (9'x18')

Go stand in the middle of that 9x18 run. Imagine the bully standing there. How does the victim escape her attention? To me it is not a question of square feet per chicken but how well can a weaker one escape the attention of the stronger one.

I was successful correcting the behavior of the 2-week-old by separating it for a while. I did not catch the 15-week-old's behavior until it was too late. You may be able to correct your problem by isolating one of them either temporarily or forever. Providing additional room may solve your problem. Or maybe not.

I have solved for peace in the flock by removing males and sometimes females. Sometimes I remove the aggressor and sometimes the victim. I don't know which I'd consider removing in your case. I totally understand your desire to fix the problem and keep both. You may be successful. But I also believe keeping chickens should be a pleasure and not an agony of worry and concern. As hard as it may be to do, sometimes the relief is worth the temporary upset of taking drastic action.

Good luck!

 

[thecatumbrella]

You may not expect it but it can happen. I had a 2-week-old chick kill a hatchmate by pecking it on the head. After it killed that one it started on a second chick. That's when I saw what was going on and intervened.

I was raising 19 cockerels, all hatchmates about 15 weeks old. Out of the blue one cockerel took an intense dislike of one specific cockerel. It attacked and killed it. After that the other 18 cockerels got along OK until they were butchered. They had normal squabbles but none were injured. Fighting wasn't that serious. It was just between those two.

In both cases this happened outside where they had multiple feed and water stations and over 2,000 square feet. Neither space nor resources were an issue.

That story with your 2 week-old chick always blows my mind. Now the cockerels... I swear there's something with the 14-15 week mark. I've had two bullies pop up days apart (at 14-15 weeks), and my last group had a bully that started at 14 weeks. It must be some sort of hormonal dump, because everything goes from silly to serious so fast!

Go stand in the middle of that 9x18 run. Imagine the bully standing there. How does the victim escape her attention? To me it is not a question of square feet per chicken but how well can a weaker one escape the attention of the stronger one.

The truth is, she cannot. My visual blocks are good for eating or drinking undisturbed, but once the chase starts, it's hard to end. I watched this bully follow her up, over, and around everything. She even took detours to cut off her escape. I'm not convinced there's anything I could do to fix the run in this situation. It's a Terminator-like pursuit.

Writing all this out is making me realize that Flora (the bully) is probably just a bad egg. She wanted to kill 3 week-old chicks through the hardware mesh (at 9 weeks-old). Now she wants to kill her brooder mate. I mean, I watched her lunge 3 feet through the air to attack her victim while her back was turned. This is not normal. I'll give her one chance to reform, but after that, it's rehome or cull.

 

[rosemarythyme]

You're getting good advice above. Wish I had more insight to add but I've been fortunate to not have had any real bullying issues.

 

[Pukkits]

There is nothing wrong with rehoming a chicken. Chicken psychology is tough enough when you have experience, space and money to build multiple enclosures as needed. When you lack any of these (we totally can't afford to built another full house and run), a stubborn, naughty bird can make a flock and their keeper miserable. I suggest rehoming bullies, as opposed to the picked on. In my personal opinion, the former bullies have a better chance in a new flock.

I've mentioned our flock story a few times, but the route we took was choosing birds based on their behavior toward the vulnerable hens. We had a mixed flock of 8, and according to the learned humans of BYC, we had ample space. One of our buff orps was just a bit different, super friendly, but kind of simple, Lucia. Five of the group used any excuse to attack her. They tried to kill her (holding down and going for the back of the neck) twice. We tried everything, pinless peepers, chicken jail, etc. She recovered from her second injury in an improvised house and borrowed dog run, the house was thin walled and thankfully Amazon delivered her panel heater just before the snow hit. She healed. We moved birds in with her, one at a time. If they were kind, they stayed. If they were mean (mean-mean, not pecking order stuff), they were rehomed. While it felt difficult and wasteful at the time, giving away birds we liked and had put a lot of feed in to, there was no comparing the peace of taking care of the chickens in the following years. It was just about feeding them according to weather needs. So much more peaceful for the next four years.

Of course we just added new pullets, but thankfully they regard the buff as superior and haven't bothered her. I'm still trying to manage some bullying among the new pullets, but no injuries. Chicken jail may be needed for Pudding who goes after the lavender orps for no reason.

Do the best you can, but if you need to, rehome.

 

[thecatumbrella]

There is nothing wrong with rehoming a chicken. Chicken psychology is tough enough when you have experience, space and money to build multiple enclosures as needed. When you lack any of these (we totally can't afford to built another full house and run), a stubborn, naughty bird can make a flock and their keeper miserable. I suggest rehoming bullies, as opposed to the picked on. In my personal opinion, the former bullies have a better chance in a new flock.

I've mentioned our flock story a few times, but the route we took was choosing birds based on their behavior toward the vulnerable hens. We had a mixed flock of 8, and according to the learned humans of BYC, we had ample space. One of our buff orps was just a bit different, super friendly, but kind of simple, Lucia. Five of the group used any excuse to attack her. They tried to kill her (holding down and going for the back of the neck) twice. We tried everything, pinless peepers, chicken jail, etc. She recovered from her second injury in an improvised house and borrowed dog run, the house was thin walled and thankfully Amazon delivered her panel heater just before the snow hit. She healed. We moved birds in with her, one at a time. If they were kind, they stayed. If they were mean (mean-mean, not pecking order stuff), they were rehomed. While it felt difficult and wasteful at the time, giving away birds we liked and had put a lot of feed in to, there was no comparing the peace of taking care of the chickens in the following years. It was just about feeding them according to weather needs. So much more peaceful for the next four years.

Of course we just added new pullets, but thankfully they regard the buff as superior and haven't bothered her. I'm still trying to manage some bullying among the new pullets, but no injuries. Chicken jail may be needed for Pudding who goes after the lavender orps for no reason.

Do the best you can, but if you need to, rehome.

I really enjoyed reading your story, especially your unique approach to reintegrating birds with Lucia. Unfortunately, we're no strangers to rehoming. Lost our first flock of 4, piece by piece, to a domino effect of bullying. And like you said, all are thriving in their new flock. It's very demoralizing to go through it again. I'm really not sure where I'm going wrong.