Standard of Perfection

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Thanks Dr. Miller. I now know how to figure out how closely related my birds are, and who it's safe to breed them to (keeping it lower than 12.5%). Thanks!

 

[AllenWMiller]

Ah Ducks but you missed the mark slightly. Yes 12.50% is certainly a safe level but as you continue with breeding, you can attain 95% genetic similarities and still the flock will be genetically strong. Likewise, you could maintain a 12.5% coefficiency and still have serious genetic issues. Remember it isn't about how closely related stock is but rather how sound the stock was that you started with and this holds true in all animal breeding.

The old adage holds true "You get what you started with for good or bad".

Cheers

JA

 

[AllenWMiller]

I don't really see much benefit in pedegreeing since most judges can spot a hybrid chicken.....although not always. This is a massive undertaking to catch the very few who would try to show a X breed as a purebred. That is why it has never been done.



I wanted to respond to you Walt, with regard to a pedigree program for poultry; but I agree that the work would be monumental. But you asked to what purpose and I pondered that and then remembered this quote:

" The word "thorough-bred," Webster's defines: Bred from the best blood; completely bred; accomplished.
With the above before us, we are led to assert that we have pure blood, and absolutely thorough-bred fowls - other writers to the contrary notwithstanding.
No one denies that we have thorough-bred cattle, which, by judicious coupling, have been bred to a uniform type that is recognized at a glance.
We have, for instance, the short-horned cattle in color any shade found in red and white; the Devon, which in its purity is confined to dark red; the Jersey, in its varied shades found in fawn, white, and black; and the Ayrshire, in any and all shades of color. Now we have not in the Light Brahma, Dark Brahma, Cochin, Hamburg, Houdan, Game, Spanish and Dorking, fowls as deserving the title of thorough-bred, as any of the cattle we have named?
Have they not been "Bred from the best blood"-completely bred-and does anyone deny that the breeding has been accomplished?" I. K. Felch

Arguably one of the best authorities of "thorough-bred" animals and breeding poultry of the 19th Century and a leading light in the APA. I have read most of his speeches, as he was a good friend and colleague of my father and grandfather and there was always this impassioned call for a pure pedigree program in the APA. Why? And I think after re reading much of what he wrote is about the acknowledgment of the achievements made by the breeder; in order to encourage the breeder to pursue "perfection".

If the APA/ABA are truly in the business of sustaining the "art of poultry fancying" I think today is the day the Associations should come forward with a pedigree standard program. I know there is no longer a lot of funding for these associations and I certainly know show money has all but dried up. But...I think if members worked hard toward establishing a unified pedigree program, this would certainly go a long way to bringing new blood into these groups and could be used as a means to revitalize poultry showing and breeding interest generally. And certainly enough fees could be applied to certainly make this profitable for both the APA and the ABA.

Just one old living man's (and one old deceased man's) opinion.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Ah Ducks but you missed the mark slightly. Yes 12.50% is certainly a safe level but as you continue with breeding, you can attain 95% genetic similarities and still the flock will be genetically strong. Likewise, you could maintain a 12.5% coefficiency and still have serious genetic issues. Remember it isn't about how closely related stock is but rather how sound the stock was that you started with and this holds true in all animal breeding.

The old adage holds true "You get what you started with for good or bad".

Cheers

JA

That's pretty good -- I have great birds, so hopefully I can remain have great birds!

 

[ejb3810]

Allen I agree with the pedigree and registration philosophy. Is it more difficult than the status Quo ? Does it come with the baggage of additional expense ? Yes to both of those questions, but I believe it would prove to be well worth the work and expense.
The American Racing Pigeon Union requires that a bird have a permanent band on its leg in order to compete in official competition, although they do not have a registration and pedigree system at this time. A person quickly learns at what point the permanent band can be put on the leg with little chance that it fall off.
If the APA and/or ABA moved to a similar program I believe it would work and the quality birds would become more valuable as a result.
I do not expect that this will happen in my lifetime.

 

[AllenWMiller]

EJB as far as I know the APA and ABA have a band requirement for showing. Now I haven't really been to shows in a very long time, so I would have to defer this point to Walt aka "Fowlman" or one of the other folks here who have a better knowledge of APA/ABA workings than I do at this time.

But the pedigree system would take a good deal of time and effort to establish. What I think folks involved with the APA/ABA today have forgotten is it took a great deal of effort and money in the 19th and early 20th centuries to establish both associations. I think it behooves us in the 21st century to advance both organizations forward.

 

[ejb3810]

Allen I believe you are right about the APA and ABA requiring a band on a bird to show it, but the difference is that it not a permanent band. A person can use a band that is temporary. A permanent band that is placed on the bird when young with enough room for growth to maturity can possibly create an identity that then would allow the individual bird to accumulate points toward particular awards or distinctions. As it is now exhibitors and breeders accumulate points for awards..

 

[fowlman01]

Allen I believe you are right about the APA and ABA requiring a band on a bird to show it, but the difference is that it not a permanent band. A person can use a band that is temporary. A permanent band that is placed on the bird when young with enough room for growth to maturity can possibly create an identity that then would allow the individual bird to accumulate points toward particular awards or distinctions. As it is now exhibitors and breeders accumulate points for awards..

The ABA sells permanent bands and many use them on bantams. They are seamless, put on at a young age, they have the date and a number. Bands are required for both ABA/APA at most shows. The serious breeders mark their birds in a permanent way to that they can keep track of them for breeding purposes. Wins are not assigned to a particular bird.....they are assigned to the exhibitor. The ABA/APA have very good records by breed of every member exhibitor. Any serious breeder has to keep meticulous records or they will have a different looking birds in two years or so. Record keeping is a huge part of successful breeding and all successful breeders do it. Most birds are toe punched at one day old so that they have a permanent marking. This is the way it has been for over a 100 years, so I don't expect any changes soon.

Serious show people seem to know when a particular bird has won a lot, even if they are on the other side of the US. The funny thing is........even though a bird is on the other side of the US people will know if you raised it, if you bought it to show, if you have others as good and how old the bird is. The poultry underground is alive and well. There are no secrets if you show a lot.

Walt

 

[checoukan]

The ABA sells permanent bands and many use them on bantams. They are seamless, put on at a young age, they have the date and a number. Bands are required for both ABA/APA at most shows. The serious breeders mark their birds in a permanent way to that they can keep track of them for breeding purposes. Wins are not assigned to a particular bird.....they are assigned to the exhibitor. The ABA/APA have very good records by breed of every member exhibitor. Any serious breeder has to keep meticulous records or they will have a different looking birds in two years or so. Record keeping is a huge part of successful breeding and all successful breeders do it. Most birds are toe punched at one day old so that they have a permanent marking. This is the way it has been for over a 100 years, so I don't expect any changes soon.

Serious show people seem to know when a particular bird has won a lot, even if they are on the other side of the US. The funny thing is........even though a bird is on the other side of the US people will know if you raised it, if you bought it to show, if you have others as good and how old the bird is. The poultry underground is alive and well. There are no secrets if you show a lot.

Walt

I started using the ABA leg bands last year. You have to order your bands early, they will run out of one size. That happened to me, had to order the next size larger.
I already have my bands for this year, I ordered early. You have to keep trying each week as the birds grow to get the bands to stay on. Now that I am using them, I can't see myself not using them. Those metal bands are just to clumsy and hard to read if they get bent a little bit.
Last year bands were bright yellow, this years bands are blue.
Also any bantam bird with the right size ABA band on, and that bird wins at an ABA, show gets a prize from the ABA.

 

[Robert Blosl]

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/400344/heritage-large-fowl-thread/4470


Need help to a question on Heritage Large Fowl Thread. Mr. Miller and Walt maybe you have the answer. bob