Standard of Perfection

[AllenWMiller]

Thank you for your kind response BarnGoddess. And no I have not missed your question I have a list of folks who have asked questions and I do my best to answer as quickly as I can. Robert asked me a complex question of terminology and breeding and it took me a bit to answer his question. And I'm not sure if I've fully answered it just yet.

In the next post I will respond to your question as best I can I assure you.

And thank you for the response to my question to Walt. I am familiar with the dates you list and they are generally the dates I am familiar with, but what my question is regarding is the list that the APA has posted on their official website. The dates on the website list conflict with what I am familiar with and I am asking Walt for clarification; since it is his area of expertise and involvement with the SOP committee.

The dates you list are within the Standard of Excellence but the website lists the dates for the Rocks differently.

And upon re reading the site I am wondering if the list is just concerning the bantams?

I think after re reading the site's list it is just bantams but the issue I have is the list is deceiving because of the lack of "bantam" being applied to the whole list.

An old man gets confused easily!

 

[BarnGoddess01]

I have a short clip on collected sperm from a chicken if anyone wants me to post that. I will have to upload it to Youtube later.

Walt

Ok, I'm game!!

Post that link!!

 

[AllenWMiller]

This is the link for the APA Breed List BarnGoddess:

http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/APA_Recognized_Breeds_6_2010.pdf


And as I said if it is the bantam list (and I know think it is) then it should read "APA Recognized ("Bantam") Breeds and Varieties" so an old man isn't so startled and confused when he reads the list!


(sorry was catching up with posting elsewhere and missed Walt's reply and confused your request to see the "clip" but the question about is still valid.)

 

[fowlman01]

This is the link for the APA Breed List BarnGoddess:

http://www.amerpoultryassn.com/APA_Recognized_Breeds_6_2010.pdf


And as I said if it is the bantam list (and I know think it is) then it should read "APA Recognized ("Bantam") Breeds and Varieties" so an old man isn't so startled and confused when he reads the list!


(sorry was catching up with posting elsewhere and missed Walt's reply and confused your request to see the "clip" but the question about is still valid.)

It is confusing. That's what happens when the left hand doesn't tell the right hand what it is doing. I have not seen that particular list until now. You have to be familiar with the large fowl and bantam classes to know which are bantams. The bantams are first and the large fowl are second starting with the American Class. I will send an email to Sam Brush APA Pres and ask them to put in a header of some sort.

Walt

 

[AllenWMiller]

​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I have a question about Marans and egg colour. You mentioned that a 6 year old hen will be laying lighter eggs. Assuming that she is a good all-round bird (type meets SOP) and laid a very dark egg earlier in her life, is she likely to pass that initial darkness on to her off-spring even if it is hatched out of her now lighter egg?[/FONT]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I also have a BCM pullet that started out laying HUGE eggs (not double yokers). Never any that I would describe as pullet eggs. The eggs are getting lighter at this point so I assume we may be getting to the end of her laying cycle. However, the eggs are also getting smaller. I've not see that before. Is that typical? Does it mean anything?[/FONT][/FONT]




[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]My initial discussion about Maran's egg color was more about what the breeder should be breeding for first not last. Having said that here are a few thoughts on egg color and answers to your questions:[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You raised the question of a 6 year old Maran hen laying lighter eggs than she used to and this is common with any Aves generally. Egg pigment fades with time. Let's call it “graying of the egg” if you like, we all get gray as we age since pigment genes deteriorate with age. Why I was pointing this out in the previous comments answers your first question. If a Maran hen was laying a “dark”, and presumably a dark color that is acceptable to you, when she was a pullet and a young hen; then yes there is some limited potential for her to pass this on. But remember egg color is a sex chromosome linked recessive gene so it isn't the hen passing this quality on; rather it was this hen's father that would be most potent for passing it on to future hens. You should be pursuing your cocks for this “egg color” not your hens. I don't want to make this sound a “sexist” comment but truly it is all about the cock when breeding. Remember then hen passes traits onto her sons only whereas the cock passes his traits on to both sons and daughters. So in reality the hen never passes her qualities onto the daughters.[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The next question raised is the quality of the chicks being produced out of these “lighter” colored eggs by this 6 year old Maran hen. The rule here is simple and applies to any hen: the quality of the chick produced from any 1 year old hen will be the same for this particular hen even when she is 3,4, 5 and even 6 years old. The egg color has nothing to do with the quality of the offspring. (Since new research is always coming out I'll hedge my comment here and say “to date” this statement is true.)[/FONT]
3. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]As for the pullet you describe, my immediate response would be cull her. Nothing good can come from a pullet varying wildly from the “norm”. Yes I have seen this behavior in pullets before and it is genetic and it isn't good. If you like the pullet and want to experiment with her because all her physical features are “good and appropriate” to SOP; then by all means keep her and give it a try. But keep track of her chicks and watch them carefully. You really don't want to pass on this kind of genetic behavior when pursuing a solid line of chickens.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I hope this helps clarify my points.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]JA[/FONT]

 

[AllenWMiller]

Thank you Walt for your reply. I think I'm familiar with standard and bantam rocks and was pretty sure I knew when they were admitted to the standard. But when I read that particular list on the APA website, I thought I was sleeping and missed some radical new change in the 21st Century! After re reading through this post it dawned on me what the list was about; which is why I asked you to check it out as it was confusing to me and might mislead some members.

Thanks again.

JA

 

[BarnGoddess01]

​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I have a question about Marans and egg colour. You mentioned that a 6 year old hen will be laying lighter eggs. Assuming that she is a good all-round bird (type meets SOP) and laid a very dark egg earlier in her life, is she likely to pass that initial darkness on to her off-spring even if it is hatched out of her now lighter egg?[/FONT]
[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I also have a BCM pullet that started out laying HUGE eggs (not double yokers). Never any that I would describe as pullet eggs. The eggs are getting lighter at this point so I assume we may be getting to the end of her laying cycle. However, the eggs are also getting smaller. I've not see that before. Is that typical? Does it mean anything?[/FONT][/FONT]




[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]My initial discussion about Maran's egg color was more about what the breeder should be breeding for first not last. Having said that here are a few thoughts on egg color and answers to your questions:[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]You raised the question of a 6 year old Maran hen laying lighter eggs than she used to and this is common with any Aves generally. Egg pigment fades with time. Let's call it “graying of the egg” if you like, we all get gray as we age since pigment genes deteriorate with age. Why I was pointing this out in the previous comments answers your first question. If a Maran hen was laying a “dark”, and presumably a dark color that is acceptable to you, when she was a pullet and a young hen; then yes there is some limited potential for her to pass this on. But remember egg color is a sex chromosome linked recessive gene so it isn't the hen passing this quality on; rather it was this hen's father that would be most potent for passing it on to future hens. You should be pursuing your cocks for this “egg color” not your hens. I don't want to make this sound a “sexist” comment but truly it is all about the cock when breeding. Remember then hen passes traits onto her sons only whereas the cock passes his traits on to both sons and daughters. So in reality the hen never passes her qualities onto the daughters.[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The next question raised is the quality of the chicks being produced out of these “lighter” colored eggs by this 6 year old Maran hen. The rule here is simple and applies to any hen: the quality of the chick produced from any 1 year old hen will be the same for this particular hen even when she is 3,4, 5 and even 6 years old. The egg color has nothing to do with the quality of the offspring. (Since new research is always coming out I'll hedge my comment here and say “to date” this statement is true.)[/FONT]
3. [FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]As for the pullet you describe, my immediate response would be cull her. Nothing good can come from a pullet varying wildly from the “norm”. Yes I have seen this behavior in pullets before and it is genetic and it isn't good. If you like the pullet and want to experiment with her because all her physical features are “good and appropriate” to SOP; then by all means keep her and give it a try. But keep track of her chicks and watch them carefully. You really don't want to pass on this kind of genetic behavior when pursuing a solid line of chickens.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]I hope this helps clarify my points.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]JA[/FONT]

Thank you, JA! I appreciate hearing that the egg colour comes from the male. (And I am still working on type - just paying attention to egg colour. I have a Blue Copper cockerel I'm excited about. He will get tested this spring.)

My questions are often hypothecial at this point. I have a very young flock so far - and the pullet that started with the large, dark eggs that have become lighter and smaller in a short time is not part of my planned breeding program as she has a multitude of flaws including being over melanized, spurs that would rival my best roo, and she's a feather picker. But because I'm just getting started, I'm hoping to learn from every bird - and every person that will take the time to answer my questions. She's in my layer coop.

 

[capayvalleychick]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif] I don't want to make this sound a “sexist” comment but truly it is all about the cock when breeding. Remember then hen passes traits onto her sons only whereas the cock passes his traits on to both sons and daughters. So in reality the hen never passes her qualities onto the daughters.[/FONT]

I know that you said this in reference to egg color, but does it apply to other traits as well?

My question has to do with what determines the size of the mature chicken. The ALBC has an article, where it says that "adult size is controlled by the size of the female stock". I've read other sources that disagree with that. So, I'm wondering if what you wrote applies to body size?

Thank you,
Kim

 

[fowlman01]

Collecting semen from a bantam Cornish cock.

Walt

 

[Minniechickmama]

talk to al6517 if you want to know about AI in chickens. He does it with his awesome Standard Cornish.