Standard of Perfection

[Oregon Blues]

To anyone who is interested in the SOP, the APA SOP is worth every penny of the purchase price. It is a beautiful solidly made book, with a stitched binding and it is full of gorgeous color plates. I highly recommend it.

 

[Robert Blosl]

I've been reading bits of this thread since the beginning. I just read through the whole thing, and I have a question. I apologize if it was already asked.

Is it really necessary to sacrifice production for exhibition qualities? Shouldn't the SOP be describing a bird that has good production qualities? (For the most part.) I'm talking about birds that were developed for production originally, like Leghorns, Plymouth Rocks, RIRs, etc. I realize that some breeds were developed for reasons other than production, so they will obviously still not be the best egg or meat producers. But the birds that were originally bred for production, although they are now being bred for production, I think that the SOP would describe a bird that still has decent production qualities.

Does that make sense?

I read your post and if you study the standard of perfection you will find it does focus on the over all production of the fowl that were once breed for a dual purpose. The problem is many who breed these fowls such as Rhode Island Reds or White Plymouth Rocks have not put as much into egg laying as others have done over the last 100 years. Is this bad no not really but it can be improved to get maybe 20 to 30 more eggs per year out of a pullet. If we could send ten pullets to a place or farm to put into a 15x15 foot house and pay a fellow to count eggs each day for 365 days we could reach this goal. They did this in the old days and they where called ROP contests. The average Standard of Perfection bird such as a white rock or a Rhode island red like I raise would lay about 190 eggs per year per ten females. This is just about the right numbers for such a pullet so she will not lay so many eggs she will end up with ruptured oviducts and then die.

What many who have other types of Rhode Island Reds or Plymouth Rocks want who got them from feed stores is a high egg production say about 250 eggs per year. This will not happen with with Standard Breed Birds that we breed and use for keeping our old endangered breeds going. If you want high egg production you get feed store chickens if you want a all around balanced dual purpose chicken like a White or Barred Plymouth Rock or Single Comb Rhode Island Red the dark kind you are happy as can be with 170 to 180 per year. You can get the numbers up to 200 eggs per year for a pullet but the standard is not going to guide you how to do this nor does it need to. This is a trade secret from classic Hall of Fame breeders. Most people wont do it any way so lets be happy with what they lay. The APA is not going to rewrite the standard to help us beginners figure out how to get the chickens that have been in this book for over 100 years to lay eggs like feed store chickens.

Hope this helps. Body capacity and width of skull which the standard talks about for breed type is what makes a egg factory for our birds. bob

 

[AllenWMiller]

AS always Bob you are on target with your posts and as stated there are many here with the knowledge and understanding of SOP to guide and train us all.

 

[AllenWMiller]

Originally Posted by chicken_boy_Kurt


I've been reading bits of this thread since the beginning. I just read through the whole thing, and I have a question. I apologize if it was already asked.
Is it really necessary to sacrifice production for exhibition qualities? Shouldn't the SOP be describing a bird that has good production qualities? (For the most part.) I'm talking about birds that were developed for production originally, like Leghorns, Plymouth Rocks, RIRs, etc. I realize that some breeds were developed for reasons other than production, so they will obviously still not be the best egg or meat producers. But the birds that were originally bred for production, although they are now being bred for production, I think that the SOP would describe a bird that still has decent production qualities.
Does that make sense?

The SOP doesn't need to discuss production qualities or meat or growth qualities as these attributes are important for some and not for others. The SOP is set as a standard and I think sometimes folks don't understand what a standard is in this sense. A standard isn't to say this is it and only this or only that. Rather a standard is a basis for comparison. The SOP is the "ideal" standard but for breeding purposes many birds will not meet the "ideal" but should fall within limits of the "ideal". This is why the SOP has a point system for judging. My point system is similar and like going to school anything above 75% is passing for my breeding stock and anything below is culled.

 

[galanie]

Just a suggestion for those who cannot afford the Standard of Perfection. Look online and seek out old copies. I finally found a 1993 Standard with color plates for around $20 including shipping so now I am the proud owner of an older copy but I'm positive my breed of choice and most of the rest is exactly the same as the 2010 version. Problem with the 1910 and other versions at Google books is that Orpingtons aren't in there. (sob) Most are darned expensive, even the 40's and earlier, but keep at it, you'll find a good deal. And Mr. Miller, keep posting, please!

 

[AllenWMiller]

Allen, it is indeed a pleasure to find this thread and enjoy the articulation and knowledge that you are contributing. I have a question regarding your thoughts on inbreeding as a tool to advance desired physical, mental and production characteristics in poultry. On another thread it has been stated that most recessive genes cause adverse results in fowl. It has been my thinking that in some cases that may be true, but certainly not all or most even.
How would you suggest to use inbreeding in an effective breeding program, or would you advise against it ?



[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Before I go into answering EJB's questions regarding inbreeding and what my thoughts are on the matter; I think some basic definitions need to be made so everyone can easily follow this line of thought on breeding. Now my definitions here are simplistic and are more complicated than I am defining each term. But I don't think it is important for the average breeder or hobbyist to understand the in depth technical and clinical language of genetic breeding. I think if we can follow these simplified version of terms the outcome of understanding good breeding techniques will still be valuable. If at a later date everyone wants to go more into depth then we shall.[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Line Breeding: It is fair to say that linebreeding is a form of inbreeding. However, it is done more selectively and with an eye to keeping the inbreeding coefficient (see below for chart) at or below 12.5%. Like inbreeding, linebreeding is an attempt by the breeder to secure, fix or maintain desirable traits within the strain or line.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In Breeding: Is the process of mating parent to offspring and offspring back to parent in an endeavor to retain or improve particular traits or to fix desirable traits within a strain or line. The inbreeding coefficient is often high in inbreeding which is where it differs from linebreeding.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Out Breeding: Is the process whereby unrelated parent stock of the same breed are brought together in an attempt to introduce new traits to a line or strain or to introduce new vitality and vigor into a line or strain that is too inbred.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Cross Breeding: Is the process of mating unrelated parents of unrelated breeds in an effort to achieve completely new offspring possessing the best qualities of each parent often with an eye to creating a new breed or better production stock.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Selective Breeding: Is the process of mating parent stock of the same breed, possessing the best desired traits (usually leading to some standard uniformity) and then culling the offspring to eventually yield the strongest and best examples of the original traits.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Compound Breeding: Using two or more breeding techniques outlined above jointly. Example: Selective Linebreeding, Double Linebreeding, Cross Linebreeding, etc.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Inbreeding Coefficient:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Father/daughter, mother/son or brother/sister → 25%[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Grandfather/granddaughter or grandmother/grandson → 12.5%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Half-brother/half-sister → 12.5%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Uncle/niece or aunt/nephew → 12.5%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Great-grandfather/great-granddaughter or great-grandmother/great-grandson → 6.25%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Half-uncle/niece or half-aunt/nephew → 6.25%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]First cousins → 6.25%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]First cousins once removed or half-first cousins → 3.125%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Second cousins or first cousins twice removed → 1.5625%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Second cousins once removed or half-second cousins → 0.78125%[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Third cousins or second cousins twice removed → 0.390625%[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Third cousins once removed or half-third cousins → 0.195%[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mendelian Inheritance: States that both dominant and recessive qualities of the parent stock are inherited by their offspring pre-dominately through sex chromosomes and sub-dominately through autosomes (or non sex related chromosomes).[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sex-Linked Inheritance: With chickens, the cock carries two chromosomes for sex while the hen carries only one. So any gene located on the cock chromosome will be passed to both his sons and daughters; while any gene on the hen's sex chromosome will only be passed on to her sons. Thus as exampled by feather coloring and marking being carried on the sex chromosome results of breeding as follows:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Barred Plymouth Rock Cock to Rhode Island Hen results in all barred offspring.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Rhode Island Red Cock to Barred Plymouth Rock Hen results in barred sons only and black daughters.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif](This was the first understanding of auto sexing chicks.)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT='Times New Roman', serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Record Keeping: I know this may seem redundant to mention record keeping but with breeding records must be kept and be clear and concise on how the line or strain is being developed.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[NYREDS]

Agreed Bob. The standard bred birds never did lay 300+ eggs a year. They weren't intended to as they were, for the most part, dual purpose birds. That said there are many breeders today who pay little or no attention to productivity resulting in birds laying 50 or 60 eggs a year rather than the 200 they should be capeable of.
With good record keeping & rigorous culling there's no reason a well bred Rhode Island Red can't lay 200 eggs a year but the breeder has to select for it.
I try to pay attention to productivity in my large fowl especially. A couple of years ago I culled the nicest looking Dominique pullet I ever raised. She was 9 months old when she went to the freezer & at that point had yet to lay an egg. While she was a beautiful bird it was going to be hard to reproduce her if she wouldn't lay eggs. In my opinion a hen that doesn't lay eggs isn't a very valuable hen no matter how good she looks.

 

[checoukan]

I don't know if any one is really looking for and older APA SOP, but if you are, I was just looking on Ebay, and there was several on that site. I believe I seen a 1902, 1915 1924, and a 1942. They are a little pricey, but so is a new one.

 

[KrisH]

wow, I really enjoyed reading through all of this. I do come from a show dog background, and yes some breeders dont really care to maintain the purpose of the breed original exsistance, but I do. I always educate those looking for a breed to understand what was the origianl purpose of that breed. Then you can understand why the dog may do some things that you may not like.

So we are now venturing into the world of chickens. We got them for a reason, they help with bugs, but in the meantime we are really enjoying the birds. Now, I am interested in a few breeds, and I seem to be struggleing to understand what the standard is. NO I dont have a copy of the SOP, as I havent located one, I wish it was available to read online. All of the dogs standards are readily available, but it seems the chickens are not. That is a complete shame and no wonder they are problems with chicken breeding. SO I guess mostly chickens are bred to produce eggs or meat. Not sure the purpose of the small birds, but I have no doubt there is.

SO as long winded as this reply, thank you to all who have knowledge and are willing to help a new person out. I hope I can someday learn and have knowledge to help another newbie. Now I need to locate a SOP, as when I ask others for help in understanding what the breed type is on some breeds they cant give me detail. SO I must find them and then go see and handle many birds. MAybe then I can start to learn.

 

[Ducks and Banny hens]

Agreed Bob. The standard bred birds never did lay 300+ eggs a year. They weren't intended to as they were, for the most part, dual purpose birds. That said there are many breeders today who pay little or no attention to productivity resulting in birds laying 50 or 60 eggs a year rather than the 200 they should be capeable of.
With good record keeping & rigorous culling there's no reason a well bred Rhode Island Red can't lay 200 eggs a year but the breeder has to select for it.
I try to pay attention to productivity in my large fowl especially. A couple of years ago I culled the nicest looking Dominique pullet I ever raised. She was 9 months old when she went to the freezer & at that point had yet to lay an egg. While she was a beautiful bird it was going to be hard to reproduce her if she wouldn't lay eggs. In my opinion a hen that doesn't lay eggs isn't a very valuable hen no matter how good she looks.

Excellent point! (Actually, many of the 'dual purpose' breeds were originally developed for only one purpose)

To me, there are three types of utility in chickens -
-Meat
-Eggs
-Brooding

For this, I keep three breeds, specifically intended to do those things.