Standard of Perfection

[AllenWMiller]

Thanks Christopher. Your insights are spot on. It's easy to forget that 63% of all points toward SOP go to body structure. This isn't a new concept either. On reviewing my grandfather's Standard of Excellence rev.c1875, it is clear that body structure has always held preeminence in the poultry breeding standards. Whether breeding for show or breeding for production the body structure lays either a solid foundation or a house of cards for future generations.

If in achieving color through selective breeding while neglecting structure; then little has been achieved. But if, through breeding, a solid body structure is developed yet color is "off"; then it is a far simpler matter in one or two generations to develop SOP color on top of SOP structure, whereas is is always nearly impossible to achieve it the other way round.

 

[capayvalleychick]

I have been lurking and reading this thread. I do agree with most of the original post. I don't have any knowledge of Marans or incubating eggs, so have kept quiet. Just thought I'd mention that I have found this thread of interest to read.

Kim

 

[checoukan]

I agree Mr. Miller, your knowlege is something that most of us will never be able to learn by ourselves. The information that you have given to me has been superb!!! Don't let some busy-body stop you from educating the rest of us. That's why there are so many sub-standard birds out in real life. We the general public do not understand how it works. Go on keep lecturing, we will be greatly rewarded if you do. If you don't want to, we will try to understand, but is will be our loss.

Sure. Go ahead and continue. I'm reading it. Most of it looks like it doesn't require a response.

 

[KBlue]

As the old saying goes, "You have to build the barn before you paint it."

Structure first,

color seccond.

 

[AllenWMiller]

Thanks folks for the kind replies. I don't mind "lurking" nor do I mind posting extensively with no responses as long as I'm not putting people off of poultry generally. As an old man I tend to prattle on about things that often don't interest folks much so I didn't want that being the case here.

Thanks for letting me know there is interest so I'll continue my line a thought on breeding and SOP here.

I posted it here originally so as to not interfere with other strings I have been involved. I figured people could read it if they had interest and pass if they didn't. Was quite surprised at the critics as this isn't cricket in the poultry world.

I hate to say I've forgotten more than I know and my college days are a bit blurry though I still remember which end of a microscope to look in.

Likewise, I remember which end feed goes in and which end it comes out of a chicken as well. Now there is useful information!

And though I don't get to physically handle as many fowl as I'd like to any more I still know what a solid sternum or a broad rib cage should feel like. I had cataract surgery a decade ago so I even know what color feathers are supposed to be so I'm more or less still able to talk on these matters. And I still remember what the SOP says about a chicken's general characteristics and if I didn't I can still read; though voices of my father and grandfather continue echos down the corridors of time reminding me if I did happen to forget.

My grandson (who set me up with this computer and site) just turned 47 and represents my family's 7th generation poultry-man. I'm grateful he sat on my knee so many years ago absorbing all that I knew about poultry so that now often I can ask him if I am remembering something correctly or not. He also keeps me abreast of all the new and developing things in the world of poultry and Aves generally. So while I may only be able to get to the coops occasionally I'm still living vicariously through him.

Poultry people and farmers generally are the best sort of folks!

 

[quibs]

Great info. I don't raise Marans, but I think focusing solely on egg color is a bad choice. That is like how we got Easter Egger chickens. All people cared about were the blue egg color not the standard of perfection for the founding breeds and the result were mongrel chickens whose only defining trait are the funny colored eggs.

dialogue: conversation between 2 or more people

monologue: a prolonged discourse by a single speaker

Seems a bit uncalled for, no need to be rude.

 

[Spangled]

Have added AllenWMiller to my "Follow" list, expecting many more informative posts based on years of experience and study.

Marans are being bred with an eye almost exclusively to achieving that lustrous rich dark brown egg. Now the problem is the dark brown pigment is a recessive gene and therefore any corruption of the bloodline and the egg color can vanishe in one generation. So in an effort to achieve "perfect" color breeders are ignoring SP guidelines for breeding and rushing ahead without regard to standards.

Recessive. So, as long as we only hatch dark brown eggs from hens that are close to the APA SP for Black Copper Marans, we will continue to have dark eggs? Is that correct? Or am I misunderstanding your "recessive" comment. Feel free to elaborate as I am seeking more information, but am not sure what to ask exactly.

I had one Black Copper Marans hen show up this season that lays a lighter egg. Still in the realm of the proper darkness, but lighter than the other hens. After a few years with these birds, the lighter colored egg surprised me. She also lays more than her hatch mate or was laying more until the recent frigid cold snap. Anyway, any comments are welcome.

Any comments or anecdotes concerning New Hampshires or buff-colored chickens would be great, but not at the expense of what you would most like to write about.

 

[kathyinmo]

Have added AllenWMiller to my "Follow" list, expecting many more informative posts based on years of experience and study.

Ditto that! My first "Follow" person!

 

[Terri O]

Please keep writing Mr Miller and cgmccary! I find your "musings" very informative! Thank You for taking the time to help us trying to learn! Terri O

 

[AllenWMiller]

Good Morning Spangle. I will follow up later with comments on New Hampshires. I'm heading with my grandson to look at some White Giants today. But here is a response to egg color being "recessive" and breeding for it.

The Marans Club of American has been working hard for years to get various "Marans" standardized and recognized by the APA. As I stated in previous posts to meet SOP you must meet body structure and color requirements[ but a judge isn't going to wait for the hen to lay and judge her egg color. So as I said previously if you are breeding for SOP then breed for body and color and not worry about egg color as a SOP factor.

Now what I meant about the recessive gene causing egg color is just that' it is not a dominate gene influencing a hen's performance. Since it is recessive it doesn't provide strong traits for future generations. You want strong dominate genes influencing a line of birds. There is nothing wrong with using a strong genetic line to improve weak recessive qualities but what I see happening too often is breeding for weak recessive qualities using "weak" birds to begin with. Remember you get what you start with not the other way around. So if you keep pushing egg color at the expense of all other qualities you create a genetic mess. My grandfather's life long friend Mr. Isaac (IK) Felch was perhaps the most stern breeder who ever lived, always insisted on an established line of birds be perfected before intention to make "improvement to the lineage should occur".

Because of this "weak" gene, a dark brown laying hen like the Marans will not always produce dark brown eggs but this shouldn't disqualify her from producing offspring (her offspring could produce the "holy grail" for Marans breeders by creating a dominate strain of dark egg layers who are also meet SOP). Also a hen that does lay "dark brown" eggs will tend to get lighter and lighter in color as she ages. This is also the nature of a recessive gene. So let's say a 3 year old Maran hen is now laying an egg far lighter than she laid when she was a pullet, do you stop hatching her eggs because they are lighter? She is perfect by SOP standards and every chick hatched from her for 2 years was SOP perfect. Since I use hens for up to 6 or 7 years for breeding purposes why would I stop using this hens eggs simply because they are lighter due to age?

This is what was happening to my young friend who I described earlier. She was discarding eggs because they were "lighter" than she thought was appropriate and keeping "dark" eggs that were from inferior birds. What she was heading for was a useless strain. Since then unfortunately I no longer get "free" eating eggs from her but this is okay because her breeding "eye" and experience are blooming and she has moved on to other fowl she enjoys looking now with a more experienced critical eye.

So I have not been saying it isn't a good idea to selectively breed for egg color; rather what I said was breed for body structure first second and third. If you have a successful line of birds that meets SOP for body and structure and plumage structure and color; then line selecting for egg color is also a good practice but for me it isn't a high priority for breeding generally; though I understand the allure within the Marans community. My allure for the Marans would be the fact that they tend to have lower incidence of salmonella egg infection. This is a trait that commercial poultry-me should be exploiting!

I point out that meeting all of that in breeding is a huge accomplishment for the seasoned, experienced breeder so I don't recommend pursuing such rigorous breeding techniques with little or no experience. I will preface that statement by saying the beginners often have amazing success even where the experienced breeder fails.

My overall point to "egg color" in the Marans thought process wasn't about Marans at all; rather it was about the idea of where a breeder's starting point to creating a successful line starts and that is with body structure. And as was pointed out by several folks here that is a tough place to start because it requires effort, time and a serious learning curve to achieve.

So pickup your birds and "feel" the structure under all those feathers as feathers can often hide a multitude of sin. When you go to shows or have a chance to meet with an experienced breed ask them what they are looking for and boldly ask them to show you on the bird. 99 out of 100 senior breeders will be happy to have a show and tell session with their stock. This is the best way to a solid line of experience. But again when a breeder only wants to talk about how perfect their birds color is or how perfect their topknot is then ask the question "what about their body structure?" If they balk at the question or stare blankly then be polite and smile and thank them for their time but don't take to the bank what you've learned as it isn't sufficient.

Remember learning 63% of something first is better than learning 37% first isn't it?