Standard of Perfection

[warbirds]

The APA does not have an artist on contract at the moment, so I am not sure what the illustration cost would be, but $500.00 each for the two might be close. A person could contract with Katherine Plumer who did many of the illustrations, but I have no idea what she is charging now. If they were the Red Sussex it could be put in on the next rerun, but if it is a breed that has no extra spaces on the page, it will have to wait until the next revision. The APA Board makes the decision on when the next Revision is to occur and that takes a minimum of two years......so 5-10 years.

Walt

Wowsers, that is a lotta cash!
Thanks for the information!

 

[cgmccary]

Speaking of breed illustrations in the 2010 SOP, though it was nice to have the "new" illustration of the Buckeye, the illustrations look nothing like a Buckeye. Instead, as one breeder (whom I agree with) described the illustration, it looks like a "high shouldered RIR with a pinched tail or like a Java." The old illustration of the Buckeye (which is the same in my 1910, 1915, 1923 SOPs) look more like the Buckeyes of today.

I don't know if the artist who drew the Buckeye was Katherine Plumer, but it is a very disappointing illustration.

 

[fowlman01]

Speaking of breed illustrations in the 2010 SOP, though it was nice to have the "new" illustration of the Buckeye, the illustrations look nothing like a Buckeye. Instead, as one breeder (whom I agree with) described the illustration, it looks like a "high shouldered RIR with a pinched tail or like a Java." The old illustration of the Buckeye (which is the same in my 1910, 1915, 1923 SOPs) look more like the Buckeyes of today.

I don't know if the artist who drew the Buckeye was Katherine Plumer, but it is a very disappointing illustration.

Well if you consider 1983 "new" I guess it is. That was when that illustration was published in the SOP. Saying it looks nothing like a Buckeye is kind of off the wall in my opinion. It is certainly not a work of art, but everything seems to be in the right places as far as I can tell, but maybe you can tell us what is wrong with the illustration. We are all here to learn.

It is a good idea to do a little research before making public statements like this. Many people call themselves breeders and are quick to criticize, the reality is there are very few real breeders of Buckeyes. Having them in your backyard does not make a breeder. Whatever you think a Buckeye should look like "today" it should still look like the APA SOP description in the 2010 SOP.

Just spent some time looking at all three illustrations you mentioned and again...they are not works of art, but anyone who thinks they resemble each other better see the eye doctor.

Katherine Plumer has only done the illustrations since 2010.

Walt

 

[capayvalleychick]

I'm saying this with all due respect to both of you.

If that is Chris McCary, he is a well respected Buckeye breeder and his cockerel took CH American and CH LF at the show in GA last month.
He also does argue from time to time with people on the appearance of the Buckeye.

So it must be a touchy subject with him.

I also was disappointed with the Jacky artwork of my breeds. I LOVE everything by Katherine Plumer and the old illustrations by Schilling.

JMO

Kim

Well if you consider 1983 "new" I guess it is. That was when that illustration was published in the SOP. Saying it looks nothing like a Buckeye is kind of off the wall in my opinion. It is certainly not a work of art, but everything seems to be in the right places as far as I can tell, but maybe you can tell us what is wrong with the illustration. We are all here to learn.

It is a good idea to do a little research before making public statements like this. Many people call themselves breeders and are quick to criticize, the reality is there are very few real breeders of Buckeyes. Having them in your backyard does not make a breeder. Whatever you think a Buckeye should look like "today" it should still look like the APA SOP description in the 2010 SOP.

Just spent some time looking at all three illustrations you mentioned and again...they are not works of art, but anyone who thinks they resemble each other better see the eye doctor.

Katherine Plumer has only done the illustrations since 2010.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

I'm saying this with all due respect to both of you.

If that is Chris McCary, he is a well respected Buckeye breeder and his cockerel took CH American and CH LF at the show in GA last month.
He also does argue from time to time with people on the appearance of the Buckeye.

So it must be a touchy subject with him.

I also was disappointed with the Jacky artwork of my breeds. I LOVE everything by Katherine Plumer and the old illustrations by Schilling.

JMO

Kim

One win at one show does not make an expert to me. I don't see any other major wins anywhere.....and that really doesn't matter. He probably is a Buckeye expert. I don't consider anyone an expert until they have raised something for 30+ years though.....but that is just me. What matters is that he is off base with his comments. The description fits the outline of the bird and until someone can convince me that it doesn't I will defend the SOP. No artist so far can compare to Schilling when it comes to illustrating chickens. There is a notice in the SOP that the illustrations are an artists representation with input from the APA, so they are not works of art.

I don't like the Jacky illustrations either, but they generally have the outline correct. I just don't see that the Buckeye illustration is that far off......it appears to agree with the written description, so maybe someone can straighten me out. I'm still learning.

I don't blame him for being critical about illustrations of his breed. You want it shown in the best light......I'm just waiting to hear what should be corrected.

Walt

 

[fowlman01]

Thank you for this information, Walt!!
I could not remember one being in any older versions - used to borrow the SOP from the 4H and FFA leaders when my kids were breeding and showing way back. Now that I have a grandson very interested in breeding and showing, he's chosen some of the heritage breeds to work with, the Red and Light Sussex being two of his favorites (behind his beloved Black Jersey Giants!).
Would you know, Walt, if there is an illustration of any sort that we could use that would at least be as close to the written SOP as possible? There seems to be a gap between what is written in the SOP and what we have been told by some other breeders of the Reds.................we are concerned that some of the stock may not be what we need to produce true SOP stock.
The absence of a color illustration in the SOP is something I will mention to the members of the American Sussex Association..........seems the most likely bunch to help get some illustrations in there! May I quote your information to the ASA group?

You may quote anything I say......some people quote things I don't say, but I can tell that won't happen here. lol

Other than the outline used for the Light Sussex and the old Schilling drawings, I can't think of a place to find any other Sussex pictures. The info printed in the APA Standard is going to be what judges will follow, so I wouldn't deviate from that. You may be able to find colored pics of a Red online....probably from the British Standard. Just use it for color though, since the two standards can be different.

Walt

 

[BarnGoddess01]

You may quote anything I say......some people quote things I don't say, but I can tell that won't happen here. lol


Walt

Don't be so sure!!!

You APA judges get credit for saying all sorts of curious things. I'm even hearing (on another board) of an APA judge (named!) that supposedly claimed to DQ a bird for laying the wrong colour egg at a show!!!!

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

Quote:

That was a long time ago. And the "clerk" is the only one to remember it what color the egg was.

Then there was the time two judges jokingly disagreed over a Red Naked Neck Bantam trio. The one had bought the trio at the Claremore, Oklahoma show. The driver refused to transport a NAKED NECK in his vehicle. Not going to say who they were, but it was funny! Seems somehow the birds got home, because he is showing Naked Neck bantams everywhere! Friends really should not let friends get Naked Necks!

We may all disgree at times. But this Fancy is a fun place with lots of good people. PASSIONATE people! But good people!

(Not sure about the Standards Committee folks, but the rest are good people!)

 

[HallFamilyFarm]

And that egg was the WRONG color!

 

[cgmccary]

I am not trying to be cantankerous and know that it is the description that counts and NOT the picture (and I'll go by the description over the picture); I am pointing the 2010 illustration out because I do not want someone breeding to the picture. I do not know when the 2010 SOP illustration was done (1983 or lately), but I much prefer the old illustration. I also cannot discern the artist's name -- artists are not always neat with autographing their illustrations & I haven't tried to see "who" because it wouldn't make much difference (i.e. I do not know the various artists). I do love the old Shilling and Sewell illustrations.

Quote:
I am an APA member & I did bother to purchase one of the APA's numbered deluxe 2010 SOP editions (so I paid the price to gripe as well) & I do have more than just a few Buckeyes in the backyard. My flock is 50 Buckeyes at the moment but that is about to change because some cockerels are headed for the freezer (and chicks are hatching this weekend). This year my plans call for moving to a stable flock size of about 75.

Yes, I think the illustration looks more like a RIR with high shoulders with a pinched tail (I am agreeing with another Buckeye breeder -- well, he said also (added) like a "Java"). I do not show Buckeyes a lot but of the 4 shows I have taken my Buckeyes, I had BB at Ohio National in 2009, CH American Class in 2011 GA show and CH Large Fowl this year's (2012) Jefferson, GA show (none of the shows with the same judge so three opinions there). There were 18 Buckeyes at this year's GA show. There are no master breeders of Buckeyes-- I admit this.

I do NOT consider myself so much a "Buckeye breeder" for shows & I have said this many times over and over (I show for two reasons: (1) to put the breed in the public eye to increase its popularity and (2) to obtain feedback so I do not get caught with my own barn blinders on (feedback from whatever judge but also from other breeders as well). It is nice if my birds do well but it does not dictate my breeding decisions. I DO consider myself as a preservationist of the Buckeye breed. I meant the criticizm of the 2010 Buckeye illustration with all seriousness; I was not being frivolous. I made the statement publically so others would read it, take it seriously & breed to the description and not the illustration per se. BYC is an excellent forum for such because it has so many followers.

Other than my 1910, 1915, 1923 SOPs, I also have a 1938, 1942 & a 1974 SOP but nothing in-between up to my 1999 copy so am unaware of when various illustrations were added, left out, etc. I am disappointed in the Buckeye's picture in the new SOP for the reason I have said above . . .

Christopher McCary