Started Reading "Pastured Poultry Profit$" - Joel Salatin

[Beekissed]

Well...let's see. It's the end of April and his birds are contained inside. They are all missing lots of feathers, pale and sickly combs, dull plummage and they have nowhere to roost or lay eggs properly. This from the man that states that he only keeps chickens in the Racken Houses in the winter time. The large and obvious feather loss is either from feather picking or lice...either option does not exemplify good husbandry practices.

Sells free range eggs but these birds are clearly NOT free ranged or otherwise ranged outside. Sure, they have a full feeder of formulated feed and crusty waterers available....how again is this arrangement so far different than the commercial turkey/chicken houses I see around here?

 

[Brunty_Farms]

It's not, I'm from Ohio and hens hit pasture in March. Virginal gets much milder winters (snow wise) than we do, so I would expect the same. However he may have had a reason for keeping them in that late. Might want to go back into the peak of summer just to check it out. From what he says you can do self guided tours pretty much whenever right? I wouldn't pay again to have a tour though.

I know at my place here, things sometimes aren't up to snuff but are usually fixed relatively quick if they are not. But from a consumer standpoint you only have one shot to impress somebody. Meaning you have to stay on top of birds with pale combs and feathers missing.... these two combos are mites to the extreme. Probably from being cooped up all winter and not having dirt to dustbath in. Shavings just make it worse as they harbor the mites.

I agree, the hens look rough but given the circumstances of being locked up all winter I wouldn't expect anything less. You have to act quick on the mights though. As far as the dead rabbit... that should have been taken care of. I know here before a tour, I personally walk the fields and pens. I make sure the broilers are just moved and fresh bedding everywhere same with nesting material ect. Same goes with looking for any dead animals or trash or clutter that may be laying around. See at any given time ( learned this from my tour at Growing Power from Will Allen) you don't know who will be touring your farm or facilities and everything must be top notch for every tour. Because you could have a multi million dollar man or woman walk through wanting to be a potential investor or partner or customer and you would never know. If they see dead animals or sickly animals than they are automatically turned off and your shot of winning them over is just that.... over.

I agree, even though he is trailblazer in this industry you have to have perfect tours. I understand working farms, but living on one and giving tours myself, people don't understand a dead animal nor the trash that wasn't picked up from the day before. They want to see perfect pastures, and everything living in harmony. That's just the way it is.

 

[Buster52]

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Bee, you are of course entitled to your personal opinion about what we saw. I don't know about the man/woman scenario, but people in general do indeed seem to see things differently based on their personalities, their backgrounds, and their moods. I was just trying to put it in perspective, and your insistence on patronizing me just got on my nerves for a bit.

But I have to take issue with the specific comment above. About 75% of the folks who use the meat bird forum here use a tractoring system at least somewhat similar to Salatin's. It is a system that I use for my meat birds. If it the above comments are anywhere near emblematic of the rest of your observations, it adds fuel to my own opinion that your observations are suspect and should be taken with a good deal of salt.

When a tractor is moved in the morning, there is plenty of fresh, clean forage for the birds. Mine attack it with enthusiasm. The next day when the tractor is moved, it is tramped down and poop laden (no doubt much more so for his CX than my heritage crosses), and considerably shorter than the grass around it. Chickens only forage for about 20% of their food on average, so they don't really need all that much, but they seem to do a very good job of it.

Tractoring also targets a specific patch of ground. The tendency of any animal is to go after the stuff it likes best first. Managed grazing makes sure they get their broccoli along with the ice cream. If your pasture is as high quality as that at Polyface, it makes for a very nice balance with the prepared feed. As to the height of the grass, as I explained before, Salatin is an expert at grass as a food source for his animals. Remember, he considers himself a grass farmer, first, before anything. His contention is that 4" is the optimum height for foraging chickens. I'm inclined to trust his judgment, and in fact find it sound when put into practice on my own place.

Salatin's tractors are also not 8X10. They are 12X12. I would say there is a considerable difference between 80 square feet and 144, wouldn't you?

Tractoring is an efficient, effective, healthy method for raising meat birds. There are dozens of people here who can attest to that fact.

One more thing on his layers, just so I get this straight... you are comparing his Racken to a factory farm operations where 6 to 8 birds are crammed in tiny cages, stacked 8 high and hundreds of yards long with a million other birds?

 

[Beekissed]

Nope..comparing his Racken house to commercial broiler operations where the birds are kept in a similar style. Inside, on litter, continual feed, nothing to do but stand around in a crowded house or lie down in the litter. No roosting accomodations, crammed three deep into nest boxes. I know one can't really compare broilers and layers but it did look similar.

Boy, Buster, you really love this guy, huh? You really should do an internship at his place! You sound just like me before I made my visit...

 

[Cindiloohoo]

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I'm not sure what people expect. How would you have pictured it Cindi?

Without giving her any background info, I showed the photos to my wife and asked her opinion. She thought it was a rather nice setup. She was particularly impressed by the transparent hoop house that let in all of the natural daylight.

When you quote me please get the ENTIRE idea of the sentence rather than the select part you want to pick. That is a partial sentence. Here is the COMPLETE sentence.

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I personally would have expected the pics to show less bald spots on birds, more space per bird, actually would have expected most of those to be on pasture in the first place, but definately not what I would have pictured from what I have read from Salatins own words. SOOOOO your wife, without background info, I would have expected to say it was a nice setup. I probably would have thought it was okay myself, had I not known it was Salatins farm, and knowing what he says in his books I still don't think it meets the standards of what he himself proclaims to be the way to raise stock. So you basically have no point there. It is up to the perceptions of the individual.

I was not there, did not see beyond these pics, and stated, "I can't pass judgement on these pictures or descriptions alone," which you, "Antagonist"

conveniently left out of the quote.

I'm not here to argue anyones point, or with anyone over this. It makes no difference whatsoever in my life or the lives of my flock. I just stated quite simply, everyone has a bad day on ocassion, even the Joel Salatin's from the top of the ag world, and perhaps, this is reflective of a bad day on his farm. Then again it may be every day on his farm. I have no idea, never been there, nor am I interested in a tour. The book may or may not reflect the man was my point. Pretty words all dolled up between a crisp clean fresh off the press bookcover means nada if it is not implemented. Just like I could read Salatin all day every day and it'll never feed or make my birds healthy, I must act to maintain them or they might end up looking like Joel's birds in that pic

Personally, I "expect" little to nothing, that way I am seldom disappointed

 

[Mac in Wisco]

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Cindi, I was only looking for some insight into your comment. I did understand the second part and your points are well written and well received, but you said you wouldn't have pictured it that way, so I was curious as to what your expectations for proper poultry housing would be, hence my emphasis on the first part.


I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. What was described sounds more like the realities of poultry keeping vs poor standards.

The housing is fairly nice. From the photos it looks that they have a generous amount of room. Floor eggs and broody hens are the reality of raising birds on the ground. You can only completely eliminate floor eggs by putting the birds in cages. The birds prefer to lay eggs on the ground and really don't care, the nest boxes are more for our convenience than theirs. The number of floor eggs each day varies by how intensively the birds are managed. The industry standard is to keep it at less than 5%, which we do very well here, but results vary. One of our neighbors is at wit's end as she has a new flock of 2500 hens and she can't keep them from laying on the floor. She is picking up 500 eggs a day from the floor. So, whether or not the floor eggs in Salatin's pen were a morning's collection or a week's worth is anybody's guess.

Old, worn feathers after a year's production are to be expected, especially if they were hatched the previous spring and didn't molt in the fall. Picking happens, especially if there is a lack of uniformity in the flock. The smaller birds take the brunt of it. That is where some perches help, as it gives the bullied birds a place to go to escape. We've never had much of a problem with picking here. With 2500 birds inside each winter, our birds have done very well. When we had a small backyard flock of 15 on a quarter acre of backyard, the birds didn't always fare too well. Mixed breeds and mixed sizes seemed to lead to more picking and aggression than a higher stocking rate.

As far as being out on pasture, there is really no set rule for when they should be outside, it is very much up to the producer as it is his bottom line, and as Jeff mentioned, he may have had a reason for keeping them in. Our co-op requires that the birds be outside from May to October, at a minimum. We generally start acclimating our birds to the outdoors around the end of March as the snow starts receding and the afternoon temps are above freezing, usually just in the late afternoon and the time outside grows progressively longer as we head into warmer weather. Others have different methods. The foreman of one large CSA in Colorado told me that as a general rule they only let the birds out once the temps are above 45 degs. Others in our area of Wisconsin wait until open areas of pasture gets 18 to 24 inches tall until they let birds out, which gives them cover from the huge number of bald eagles and hawks in our area.

 

[Buster52]

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Nope. Way too old. He doesn't take geezers.

 

[Cindiloohoo]

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Quote:
Cindi, I was only looking for some insight into your comment. I did understand the second part and your points are well written and well received, but you said you wouldn't have pictured it that way, so I was curious as to what your expectations for proper poultry housing would be, hence my emphasis on the first part.


I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. What was described sounds more like the realities of poultry keeping vs poor standards.

The housing is fairly nice. From the photos it looks that they have a generous amount of room. Floor eggs and broody hens are the reality of raising birds on the ground. You can only completely eliminate floor eggs by putting the birds in cages. The birds prefer to lay eggs on the ground and really don't care, the nest boxes are more for our convenience than theirs. The number of floor eggs each day varies by how intensively the birds are managed. The industry standard is to keep it at less than 5%, which we do very well here, but results vary. One of our neighbors is at wit's end as she has a new flock of 2500 hens and she can't keep them from laying on the floor. She is picking up 500 eggs a day from the floor. So, whether or not the floor eggs in Salatin's pen were a morning's collection or a week's worth is anybody's guess.

Old, worn feathers after a year's production are to be expected, especially if they were hatched the previous spring and didn't molt in the fall. Picking happens, especially if there is a lack of uniformity in the flock. The smaller birds take the brunt of it. That is where some perches help, as it gives the bullied birds a place to go to escape. We've never had much of a problem with picking here. With 2500 birds inside each winter, our birds have done very well. When we had a small backyard flock of 15 on a quarter acre of backyard, the birds didn't always fare too well. Mixed breeds and mixed sizes seemed to lead to more picking and aggression than a higher stocking rate.

As far as being out on pasture, there is really no set rule for when they should be outside, it is very much up to the producer as it is his bottom line, and as Jeff mentioned, he may have had a reason for keeping them in. Our co-op requires that the birds be outside from May to October, at a minimum. We generally start acclimating our birds to the outdoors around the end of March as the snow starts receding and the afternoon temps are above freezing, usually just in the late afternoon and the time outside grows progressively longer as we head into warmer weather. Others have different methods. The foreman of one large CSA in Colorado told me that as a general rule they only let the birds out once the temps are above 45 degs. Others in our area of Wisconsin wait until open areas of pasture gets 18 to 24 inches tall until they let birds out, which gives them cover from the huge number of bald eagles and hawks in our area.

I have some birds that look like those due to molt as well. I was just astonished this was supposedly in Spring. I dunno, I always thought chickens as looking their best in Spring weather myself. My birds generally do, but the point was made I do NOT have, nor do I intend to have THAT many...IMO the man is crazy

I don't think I could hire enough help to "get it right" with a farm that size, and I am WAAAYYY too picky. I do think Bee had a good point on women and men viewing things differently. DH would let some things pass without a second glance that I simply would not. Generally speaking I think this hold true for most men/women or at least the majority of the ones I know anyway

Which is precisely why I wouldn't have such a hugondous operation that I personally could not tend to. Salatin has some terrific ideas on management though, but it is a bit much and him being in the limelight, just makes it worse IMO. Folks see his hired or apprenticed hands results, not his own personal results when they go on tour. A man like Brunty on the other hand, handles the majority of the work himself, and has others help in his presence generally from all I have read/seen here. So that being said, hats off to both of them, but I think Brunty has a bit better grasp on management

Again, just my opinion.

Oh and I just like cutting up with you guys. I really did not get offended by your statement at all, just wondered why part was quoted, and part left out

 

[Buster52]

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Soooo...

Just so I get this right, because men and women think differently, men are better equipped to run a large farm operation with numerous employees than women?

Glad I didn't say that.

BTW, Polyface is considered a small to medium size farm by most standards. It is only 250 acreas. My farmer Grady (the former Salatin apprentice) and his dad run a couple thousand acre ranch.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

God I love this board... you guys are too much. It's like I'm in my own little soap opera...