Starting Guinea Keets on Medicated Turkey Starter - Is it okay?

[PeepsCA]

I wouldn't consider anyone's reply to you on here written with any intent to ridicule you at all, Barbara. Maybe you are just being a little over sensitive? (Besides, ridiculing or doing anything of that nature to others that post here is against BYC rules!).

If you want to consider that me staying firm/standing my ground on my belief that keets do need high protein feed as you going up against a brick wall, then so be it. In a way, I guess you are. My point (the brick wall) was just basically that you seem unaware of and/or inexperienced with the downside of all of the other possible (or probable) issues that can be associated with feeding keets a lower protein diet... especially during those crucial 0-6 wks of age.

When/if I see any info posted on here that throws up a red flag for me and especially any info that may cause new Guinea Fowl owners problems with their birds down the road, I always do my best to point out that it may not be the best choice for their birds or keets, and I try to clearly explain why. When I give advice on here, (no matter the subject) I always try to look at the whole big picture... and cover all the basis, especially if it's something I have experienced first hand with my own flocks. Maybe not all of the people that read my posts/replies appreciate that about me, but a lot do.

While you may have joined BYC back in 2010... you've only posted 51 times (and about half of those just recently). You have not been a regular active poster on the forum here, plus you have no Avatar pic, no signature, no pics in your profile albums etc etc... so I'm guessing that's most likely why JLeigh considers you new to the forum (congrats tho, you've finally moved up to Out of The Brooder, and are no longer a New Egg... took you 3 yrs, but you made it

).

 

[chickrancher]

I agree, we only feed our Guinea keets Southern Feeds turkey starter, and then the layer formula when they mature. No medicines added and we have not had any problems. All of our birds come from the local co-op and after a year have been disease free.

 

[BarbaraNH]

Why even bring up how often I've posted on this forum, Peeps? Why mention that I don't have an avatar or pictures in an album? But, since you did, I guess I'll have to explain. Not that it should really matter in the whole scheme of things.

I actually joined BYC long before 2010 when it was run under a different format. I don't remember exactly when that was, but I know that it was before 2008 because I have an email in my files dated 1/23/2008 which informed me (as a Backyard Chickens member) that the site had been moved to Yuku. I used to have an avatar (it was a picture of my guinea coop), but I did not put it back up when I had to sign up again when BYC reformatted its forum at some point. I don't use my camera very often, and that's why I don't have many pictures of my guineas on this site or anywhere else on the Internet. I'm just not a camera buff like you are. I've never felt the need to put a "signature" on any of my posts on any message board that I've ever posted on (and there have been many over the past 14 years).

Now as to the reason I have not posted much until lately.... I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis a couple of years ago and had to take some time off from typing due to the pain and swelling in my fingers. I would check the forum as often as I could, but I could see that a new poster (somebody named PeepsCA!) had found her way to this forum and was handling everything so well that I didn't feel I needed to say a word. She was saying enough for 10 posters. That was not meant as a slam, BTW. I was very impressed with the quality of your answers, and I felt good knowing that people who came here with questions about guinea fowl were finding good answers. Since I had trouble typing at that time, I rationalized that my input would only be a repeat of yours (in a much condensed form). Besides, I was having trouble enough, due to my illness, keeping up with my own website duties. Over time medication has helped put my RA under control, and I've been able to type comfortably and post more often again.

I am not recommending that anyone feed a low protein feed to their guinea keets. What I am saying is just that perhaps there is a reason to tone down the amount of protein that keets are fed if they are kept in a brooder where they cannot get the proper exercise that their actively growing bodies need. If somebody is having leg/joint issues with their keets, it might be a good idea to consider a lower protein feed (something in the 24-26% range) to help slow down their rate of growth which might help with the problems they are having. Not only that, but an intermittent lighting program as well as a larger area so the keets can get more exercise should also help. I don't think I'm naive or ignorant about feeding low protein to keets. I am aware that they need a high protein diet (even 24% is considered high protein), and I know of many studies (made with guinea fowl) that support that idea. I don't think that offering a starter feed that has only 24-26% protein would be detrimental to their guineas down the road. It's still considered a high protein feed.

I'm sorry if this is becoming such a sore subject. I support anyone's decision to feed whatever feed seems to be working for them.

 

[Sandshaven]

I would love to read more about the research Barbara. I do feed a high protein but I am always open to learning more.
I also have to say I have appreciated your knowledge over the years... I hope you keep sharing what you find along the way.

 

[PeepsCA]

Why even bring up how often I've posted on this forum, Peeps? Why mention that I don't have an avatar or pictures in an album? But, since you did, I guess I'll have to explain. Not that it should really matter in the whole scheme of things.

I actually joined BYC long before 2010 when it was run under a different format. I don't remember exactly when that was, but I know that it was before 2008 because I have an email in my files dated 1/23/2008 which informed me (as a Backyard Chickens member) that the site had been moved to Yuku. I used to have an avatar (it was a picture of my guinea coop), but I did not put it back up when I had to sign up again when BYC reformatted its forum at some point. I don't use my camera very often, and that's why I don't have many pictures of my guineas on this site or anywhere else on the Internet. I'm just not a camera buff like you are. I've never felt the need to put a "signature" on any of my posts on any message board that I've ever posted on (and there have been many over the past 14 years).

Barbara, I brought all of that up because I was being NICE and trying to help explain why JLeigh thought you were new. (EXCUSE me for trying to be helpful, but you seemed offended and I know that was not JLeigh's intent

). Aside from a few of us here on BYC that know of you from GFIA, looking at the small number of posts it shows down under your user name on your Avatar, the lack of an Avatar pic, the lack of a signature and not having any pics in your albums posted on threads here on BYC (all things the majority of people usually like to add to their profiles once they join the BYC community... such as SandShaven has already done, just as an example)... and the fact that you haven't any of that would make anyone believe/assume you were not very active here on BYC, and new to the forum (not everyone joins BYC to post on just the Guinea forum... there are well over 50 separate forums that BYC members use here). JLeigh apparently just did not look at the date you joined, it's as simple as that.

No need to reply back to me, I'm over and done with this... and this thread has pretty much lost my interest. Bickering back and forth and nit picking the choice of words used isn't what BYC is all about. And if it continues, the mods will end up closing this thread or giving someone a warning and I'd hate to see that happen over something so trivial.

Best of luck with your research on lower protein diet for keets.

 

[BarbaraNH]

I was never offended by anything that JLeigh said. Sorry if I gave that impression, JLeigh. I actually concur with most of what you said and I do understand your position. I agree that I should look into this further to learn exactly what this new information is all about. I also said that I would let everyone know when I found out more.

My Joined date is right up there with all of the other things that people notice about any poster, so I didn't understand why somebody would think I was new to the forum. It's that simple, really. Certainly no offense taken if anyone missed seeing the date.

Peeps, I'm not trying to cause trouble here or to "nit pick" the choice of words. I can see that I've hit a nerve with you, and I don't want to aggravate the situation. I know how important you are to this section of BYC, and I will step aside in an effort to "keep the peace." (I'm sure my achy fingers will thank me anyway for doing that!) I thought that my explanation of why I wasn't a very active poster would help, but it looks like I've only made things worse.

Before I go, I do plan to post information that I've received from Dr. F. Dustan Clark, the Extension Poultry Health Veterinarian at the University of Arkansas, for anyone who may be interested. My computer is having fits right now (I keep losing my Internet connection for some reason), so I'm going to give it a rest and come back again later tonight. Hopefully, I'll be able to upload this message to the forum before I lose my connection again!

 

[BarbaraNH]

Okay, here's what Dr. Clark told me about the valgus/varus deformity (VVD) that some birds can have. He said that he discussed this at the GFIA Small Flock Poultry and Backyard Guinea Fowl Conference held in Poteau, OK, earlier this year. There was no written transcript or audio recording of the lecture, so I'll try to summarize the information in the order that he explained it to me.

Valgus is an outward deviation/rotation of the leg. The affected bird may appear knock-kneed.

Varus is a medial or inward deviation/rotation. Birds with this leg deformity appear bow-legged.

The etiology (cause or origin) of this leg problem is not yet determined, but the consensus is that it may be a combination of genetics, fast growth rate, and nutrition (high protein/high energy).

When this condition occurs in broilers, it can be seen in some birds and not in others in the house. Since the birds in that house all have similar space, diet, genetics, and growth rate, there doesn't appear to be one causative factor.

Dr. Clark's experience with ostriches several years ago was that VVD seemed to be more prevalent in birds that were on high levels of protein/energy with little exercise. But, not all birds in these groups were affected. He feels that pushing the birds to grow fast often causes this condition and a number of other problems, depending on the species.

There is no treatment for VVD once it develops. However, a number of years ago surgical correction was tried in ostrich chicks with some success, and that has been reported in other species as well.

He has heard that lowering the protein/energy level and increasing exercise has been used with success. Years ago it was reported that some zoos walked their long-legged birds in an exercise program to prevent leg problems. Young ostriches in the wild may walk several miles each day, so there may be a precedent for exercise increase as a preventative.

While he is not aware of the condition in guinea fowl, he believes they could be similarly affected since numerous avian species have been reported with these leg deformities.

Research data from experiments with chickens and turkeys has shown that this condition occurs when there is fast growth and that a slower rate of growth does lessen the problem. However, since it is not uncommon to find a few birds in a poultry house that have leg problems, that suggests that factors besides growth rate/nutrition may also be involved.

It is possible that guineas may have less of a problem because they are often in a free range environment which would increase their exercise and limit their food intake.

The guinea industry in France is such that there may be research into the problem there.

Dr. Clark has not personally seen the leg problem in guineas, but he has seen slipped tendon. In many cases of valgus or varus there is a slippage of the tendon as the rotation becomes too severe.

So, here's what I've taken from Dr. Clark's information. This deformity is something that poultry specialists are looking into and formulating strategies hoping to prevent VVD in many avian species, including guinea fowl. It doesn't look to me as though there are any new formal dietary recommendations (or research being undertaken in the U.S.) concerning guinea fowl. There may be, but I'm not aware of any right now. Some guinea fowl keepers are making changes on their own in an effort to ward off potential leg problems. I may consider doing the same if I plan to raise anymore guinea keets; but as it stands now, I don't have any immediate plans to do that. This has been an interesting search for information. I've learned a lot. I hope that at least some of you will find this information useful.

 

[toomanyticks]

Thank you all for your help. We cannot seem to find a starter feed in our area through local feed stores that does not contain a warning about not feeding it to keets so we had to choose non-medicated game bird starter. It has 30% crude protein and they are doing fine so far. They are almost 2 weeks old. Again, thank you all for your responses.

 

[BarbaraNH]

I hope your keets continue to do well, toomanyticks, and grow up to be hungry little tick eating machines!

 

[casportpony]

Subscribing.