Starting Guinea Keets on Medicated Turkey Starter - Is it okay?

[PeepsCA]

I'm certainly not suggesting that you recommend anyone use feed with antibiotics, nor am I recommending that they do. I just wanted to point out that others have used the feed without any problems. I did. We all have our own experiences to guide our practices. I would use it again if it were available, but I might choose something else with less protein in the future. I don't feel that gamebird starter feeds are the best feeds for guinea fowl. The protein level is too high, in my opinion.

Yes we do all have our own experiences to guide our practices, and obviously some of us have a little more to guide us than others.

I'm not exactly sure why you would think game bird starter feeds are too high in protein for keets, last time I checked Keets were considered Game Birds, with nutritional requirements very close to Pheasants and Turkeys... so exactly what problems does it cause, why do you feel high protein starter feed isn't the best choice and why is it too high? I have not seen any issues in the thousands of keets I've started and raised on high protein starter and grower feeds.

Actually lower protein feeds do more damage than higher protein feeds, IMO/IME... slower feathering, slower growth, possible cannibalism in the brooder from lack of protein, health issues from excess fat around the organs, reproductive/laying issues, egg binding and prolapse in Hens, etc etc.

And besides all of that, for those that raise Guineas for meat, high protein feeds support fast growth and a lean bird (the meat being lean is one of the major appeal factors to those that eat Guinea Fowl). Isn't corn the main ingredient in most of the lower protein feeds? Corn, IMO is junk/sugar/starch, all it does it produce a fatty bird. I don't know about anybody else, but excess fat around the heart, gizzard, liver etc and too much leaf fat is the last thing I want to see when I open up a Guinea when I'm processing them for my table.

 

[BarbaraNH]

Quote:
Obviously... I know you have enormously more experience than I do, Peeps, and I'm not challenging you on that. I respect your opinions, and I agree with you on almost everything.

I got the idea about feeding guinea fowl a starter feed with a little less protein than game bird starter from the information that was presented at the last GFIA Conference in Oklahoma this past spring. Attendees were told (and I was not one of them, but the information was passed along to me) that some of the leg problems seen in keets raised in a brooder are now being attributed to their high protein diet. Researchers have apparently figured out that, while guinea fowl do need a higher protein feed for proper growth, they also need to exercise and move about in order to utilize that protein properly. Too much protein can cause problems with bone and joint development when keets are confined and not out on range as wild game birds would be. All of the studies involving guinea fowl that I've read have recommended a slightly higher protein content in starter feeds than what is recommended for chicks. In most studies, and these are not studies of turkey poults or broiler chicks, the recommended percentage of crude protein in the feed for young keets should be 24 - 26%. I'm not talking about using a starter feed that has low protein. Never suggested that. But, it seems that the very high protein feeds (28 - 30%), like those meant for turkeys and pheasants, may cause bone and joint problems in guineas. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they might also cause problems in turkeys and pheasants. I don't know if that has been researched yet. Game bird systems might need the high protein, but their brooder living arrangements might not be the best match for it. At least that's what the current way of thinking seems to be. Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to tone down the protein content in my starter feeds for my guineas.

I hope that answered your questions.

 

[PeepsCA]

I've never had leg issues with my keets or turkey poults in my brooders (and with as many as I hatch, things can/do get pretty crowded at times), when/if I ever see leg issues it is usually only from hard hatches/breeches or temp fluctuations during incubation, before they've even ingested any starter feed or get moved to the brooders. (I don't consider slipped tendon to be a protein related issue, IMO/IME, if it's not from a genetic defect, it's caused by a nutritional deficiency, or from an injury).

As for high protein causing issues for Turkeys... I have 6 healthy adult Turkeys that were raised on 30% game bird feed up until 6-8 wks, then weaned to a 24% game bird diet from then on until I started fermenting my feed for them (but still staying in the 22-24% protein range for them), they also were fed some catfish diet pellets (32% protein) mixed into their diet as a supplement prior to breeding/laying season... they are all now breeding and producing like crazy. No leg issues on any of my 6 adults. They are Heritage varieties tho (and they free range daily), not the broad breasted beast varieties that are extra prone to suffering leg issues at a young age due to how rapidly they put on meat/weigh anyway. I also have over 100 poults that I have hatched from their eggs this season that are also being raised on a high protein Game Bird starter, supplemented with Ultra Kibble... plus they also get mealworms, scrambled or boiled egg and minced raw organ meats on a regular basis for treats. Even with all that excess protein, they suffer no leg issues as of yet, (ages range from 9 weeks of age down to a few days old so far).

While I agree in cramped/overcrowded brooder conditions keets (and poults) may not need 30% protein because they can't burn it all off, I'd be more inclined to think/believe leg issues are caused by either too much or too little of a different ingredient/nutrient in the feed, not the protein % content itself. Back when I first got into Guineas, all the info I found about excess protein stated that it was typically just passed by the bird without causing any issues (not sure when that theory changed). Or maybe it's the actual different types of protein or the quality of the protein sources themselves that's used in feeds these days. As we all know, not all starter feeds are created equal, especially with so much GMO garbage being used in poultry/livestock feed nowadays... but I have raised keets on 25% protein starter before, and I hated it. The keets were puny, starving all of the time, they started cannibalizing each other's ceres, were major feather eaters once everybody started going thru their first juvenile molt and always had a more pronounced keel bone, etc. Even now, what few birds I kept out of those batches... are still smaller as adults than my higher protein raised keets matured out at. And hen I processed a couple of them, they had excess internal fat... and they were males.

So I personally will never again revert to lower protein diet for my keets... but best of luck with however you choose to feed your keets. And no offense meant to you, your opinions, your research or the speakers at the conference, but I think for the sake of healthy keets/birds and my reputation as being someone that produces and sells healthy keets/birds... I'll stick with suggesting the feeding recommendations from experienced Guinea Fowl/Game Birds breeders like The Guinea Farm (28-30%) and Shady Hollow Farm ("the higher the better"). There's also an exotic Guinea Fowl breeder that posts here who feeds all of his breeds of Guineas high protein as well, (supplementing with catfish diet pellets, which from reading his posts is where I first learned about using them). I've never seen him mention any leg issues from high protein.

So again, best of luck raising your keets on lower protein feed. Hopefully your keets/Guineas don't ever experience any of the lower protein diet issues that I've mentioned.

 

[BarbaraNH]

I believe this is fairly recent research, Peeps, and I'm not talking about slipped tendon or twisted leg (twisted femur). I believe the term being used is valgus/varus deformity (VVD) which is now thought to be related to rapid growth combined with too little exercise. It is similar to what is often seen in broiler chickens, but guinea fowl, turkeys, ostriches, and emus are apparently also susceptible to it if their level of exercise is not sufficient. When the condition is recognized, it is recommended that the keet's growth rate be slowed down by restricting their diet or lessening the amount of light they are exposed to. It will be interesting to see if the two guinea fowl breeders you mentioned might modify their recommendations in the future. The new crude protein recommendations are intended to prevent these types of leg deformities from occurring. Seems to me that allowing more space per keet in a brooder box should also be a requirement. Every so often I do read about a keet with a leg deformity that cannot be "fixed." I've been lucky enough to not have had anything like that in my flock, and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm glad to know that your guineas haven't either. We both must be doing something right.

 

[JLeigh]

VVD seems to be fairly rare since most people - myself included - raise their keets on a high protein feed. I use a 30% non-medicated crumble. I can see the need for more brooder space; that makes a lot of sense, but I wonder if the condition warrants lowering the protein content of feed across the board. I also have some questions about the research. I'd like to know who conducted it and for how long. Were the long-term internal effects of a lower protein measured? Did the researchers conduct clinical studies with different groups feeding some high protein with lots of space, groups with low protein and lots of space....you get the idea. BarbaraNH, if you could point me in the direction of the study, that would be great.

It just seems to me that since thousands and thousands of keets per year have been fed a higher protein diet with no ill effects that the few with leg development problems might be the exception rather than the rule. Management by exception of anything always makes me question the wisdom of it. Not saying VVD in keets on high protein (since most keets are raised on it) doesn't happen, but is it a direct relationship to the protein or the brooder space? How much does genetics come into play, and was that taken into consideration?

I'm skeptical of doctors (MDs, vets, pharmaceutical companies...) making sweeping statements based on loosely gathered anecdotal evidence over a few years without extensive, controlled clinical trials. They did that with HRT for menopausal women (ask my family how THAT worked out) and broccoli to name two, and they didn't stand up against time. There was a "oh, wait, we thought we were right, but turns out we weren't" retraction sent out after a couple of years.

 

[BarbaraNH]

I wish I had a link to the research, but this is something that I was told, and to be honest, I'm not even sure who it was that presented this information to the conference attendees. All of the presenters were from the University of Arkansas, Poultry Science Dept. I'll ask to find out more. I'm curious myself to see how this all came about. I will certainly pass along any studies that I become aware of.

I don't think we can assume that most guinea fowl keepers raise their keets on a high protein feed. A few years ago the GFIA conducted an online poll with the question: How much protein is in your guinea keets' starter feed? The results were pretty even between those who fed a starter feed with 26% or more protein and those that fed a starter feed with less than 26% (46% more and 46% less - 8% did not know). 134 people took the survey. Not a huge number of respondents, but something to think about anyway. I tend to think that genetics could play a role in this. I think that breeders fed a high protein diet (many do choose to continue feeding high protein feed to their adult guineas) may pass on certain characteristics to their offspring which could foster VVD tendencies. This condition could even begin while developing inside the egg. But, that's just me thinking out loud.

 

[PeepsCA]

Yah, I wish you had a link to that study too. Better yet, how about some transcripts, video or a recording of that speech/lecture?

Except for my full time free range flock, I keep my breeding flocks of Guineas in mixed flocks with Peafowl and Turkeys, with both of those breeds both requiring more protein in their diet than adult Guineas do... so more than 85% of my Guineas are eating and have been eating more protein than they need from the time they were weaned off of grower feed. If high protein was really that troublesome/harmful to Guineas... I wouldn't have many birds left in my flocks, lol.

134 people that answered a survey, vs the millions and millions that own/raise Guinea Fowl world wide? Is that significantly low number (46% of 134) really representing anywhere near an accurate number/% of people that raise/keep Guinea Fowl (or that know how to feed them) to be able to consider the results substantial enough to base an assumption on?

There are sites, online books and paperback books read by many, all of which recommend feeding keets high protein feeds. Plus the hundreds and hundreds of different brands of feeds that have Guinea Fowl feeding instructions printed right on them... if I was to assume anything, it would be that more people read those sites, books and feed bags and follow the feeding recommendations for Guineas, than those that don't

 

[BarbaraNH]

Don't worry, Peeps. I can see I'm going up against a brick wall. LOL I'm not going to offer any more information until I see what else I can discover from the people who know more about it. But, I would like to point out that input from 134 guinea fowl keepers is more than the input from one flock owner. I'm just trying to pass along some information that was told to an audience of guinea fowl enthusiasts by an university poultry specialist. You can take it for what it's worth. Not all guinea fowl everywhere around the world have the same health problems. Perhaps this VVD condition is becoming more and more prevalent in some locations. I don't know, but I will try to find out more.

 

[JLeigh]

It's not a brick wall, BarbaraNH. I think it's healthy skepticism against years of empirical evidence from private and professional breeders and feed company recommendations. There are many new guinea owners who come to this site for information and of course one of their first questions is "What do I feed them?" and when they see advice that is 180 degrees from what most people have been saying on this forum for years, it confuses them.

I'm open minded to change and new information but I need more than "I heard from someone who heard at a conference". Please don't be offended - - not my intent. I've done considerable research into guineas before I got them, and I continue to learn. You are new to the forum, and while I know you're providing information as it was relayed to you, I think looking into the research is the only responsible way for me to approach changing something as important as meeting the nutritional requirements of keets.

 

[BarbaraNH]

I understand where you're coming from JLeigh. I'm someone who likes to dig deep to find out more about anything before putting it into practice myself, and that is why I will be searching for more facts and information about this new research. The only reason I haven't done that yet is because I completely trust the people who clued me into this and I value their knowledge about guinea fowl.

I'm not sure why you think I am new to this forum. If you look at my profile, you will see that I've been around here since August 2010, and actually quite some time prior to that before the format was changed. I'm not suggesting that what I might do with any future keets is what everyone else should do. I certainly don't believe that saying I'm thinking about feeding a starter feed with slightly less crude protein than the very high protein feeds that I've used in the past (say 26% rather than 28-30%) is 180 degrees from what is usually recommended on this site. So, I guess I'm a little puzzled at the reaction I'm getting. I thought I was passing along some good new information that might be welcomed by newbies and seasoned guinea fowl keepers alike. So, it does feel like I've been ridiculed a bit for even bringing it up.

I will continue to find out more. I will be contacting the person who spoke at the conference (I have a good lead on that), and I hope that he can tell me exactly where he stands on this new approach to preventing VVD in guinea fowl.