Starting out, MANY questions

[Rhendera]

We purchased our property last year, and I finally have the room for chickens - so this will be my first time constructing (or rather, converting) suitable living conditions for chickens. We have a 16x18 barn on the property that I will be converting for chickens. I have done tons and tons of reading, and somehow I still have about a bazillion questions, so I figured it'd be about time to start a topic and get some help.

I live in Northern Ontario, so it gets pretty darn cold up here. Figured that's probably information that might help.

First question: Flooring. Currently the barn has a plywood floor and I thought I'd cover it with some vinyl flooring for easier cleaning..... until I went to Home Depot and found out it'll cost me at least $2/sqft and that adds up VERY fast for a barn that's 16x18 (approx 290sqft) - and I am not willing to spend that much. I don't care too much about the plywood degrading over time as we'll be tearing this barn down in a few years anyway. Should I just stay with the plywood? It's not nearly as easy to clean, though.
That leads me to question #2 that's related; floor litter? I can't seem to decide between sand or a deep litter method. I like the idea of sand more, but I think it might not be the warmest option in winter. I don't mind the deep litter method either, however I read it's mostly effective with a dirt floor, which I don't have. And I would really like to use poop boards, wouldn't those defeat the purpose of deep litter? What would you guys do? Any other options?

Then Question number #3 - There is a covered area right next to the barn that'll be perfect to convert to a run - but I am not sure if it'll be big enough. It's about 7ft by 18ft. Would this be big enough for about 16 chickens? (I am picking up 16 chicks at the beginning of April) Do I make the entire run out of hardware cloth? It seems very expensive to do a large part with hardware cloth. I just picked up 2 rolls for $16 each (24" by 5 ft - 1/4th inch) we have LOTS of predators around. (Lynx, bears, wolves, coyotes, and I'm sure a whole host of the smaller predators, too - I've never seen any of the larger ones but the tracks in the snow and pictures from neighbors have me convinced! )

I am sure I will come up with dozens more questions, but I think these are my current main ones. I have attached some pictures of the barn (still a mess inside, cleaning out and disassembling the mess the previous owners left behind!)

Thanks so much for any and all help! Trying to get it all done as well as I can!

 

[DobieLover]

I used porch and floor paint from Home Depot. I used 2 coats to cover the horizontal surfaces in my coop which houses 27 birds. The coop proper is 8x12 with a storage/brooder/nest box room of 4x12. I paid $9 for my can of "oops" paint. I didn't really care what color it was. It is holding up great.
Over that I put three bags of pine shavings.

Because I use poop boards that I clean every morning and my run is totally predator proof so I don't close it off from the coop, I don't have to clean the shavings out regularly. I use Sweet PDZ on the poop boards and a metal cat litter scoop. In the winter, I also have to use a hammer and a heavy duty paint scraper to chisel off the frozen poop. As soon as the birds come off the roost, they go out to the run which is also where I keep my feed troughs and the open waterer. I expect I'll do a full blown cleaning of the coop every spring.

If you give them extra space in the coop, you can make your run size work. I like to add "stuff" to my run. It helps give them things to do and lower ranking members places to hide.

I bought 50' rolls of 4' high 1/2" hardware cloth off Amazon for the best price I could find anywhere. IMO, it's worth it to just go that route.

If you have that cast of characters for predators, I would also run some hot wires around the works and make sure you install a predator apron to prevent digging.

I did all this with my coop. If you want some more ideas, click on the My Coop link under my name to see what I'm writing about here.

You have an awesome building to convert into a coop!

OH! And it's already wired up!!

 

[rosemarythyme]

1. One option would be Black Jack 57, though not sure if it's sold in Canada. It's a paint-on rubberized roofing compound that helps waterproof and seal small cracks and fissures in the floor.

Otherwise some good old deck or floor paint should do the trick.

2. In a coop with a floor, if you're interested in "deep litter" you'd want to go with deep bedding over deep litter (the difference being you'd never add moisture and aren't trying to compost). My bedding is aged chunky wood chips - main reason for this is it's free for me, and the chips are also used in my run. Twice a year I rake the chips out of the coop and into the run's deep litter, and then add new chips to the coop. I don't use poop boards so I spot clean under the roosts each morning instead.

3. 7x18 is too small for 16, however if you're using the whole barn for the chickens and can leave it open all day for them, the barn space might help make up for the small run? Not sure if the chickens will agree...

As far as run material the hardware cloth you picked up is good against rodents (as an apron) but probably won't do anything against the large predators. 1/4" HWC is generally very thin wire. In a perfect world you'd use some heavy wire like welded wire or chain link as the base fencing, then 1/2" HWC over the entirety of that, and electric as well to thwart bears, but costwise that's probably way too much, so I'd consider prioritizing electric perhaps, as it sounds like you have the potential of having a lot of damage done by larger predators that can get through most fences.

Some notes about considerations for different fencing options: https://www.cwrescue.org/predatorproofhousing

For HWC pricewise big retailers like Amazon will offer you the best savings, plan on buying 50' or 100' rolls for the best bang for your buck.

 

[Rhendera]

Ok, got it - Will make the run bigger right from the start! Shouldn't be that much more effort, was just hoping it would work - but it doesn't so will expand on that

Electric fencing should be doable as the old owners left some electric fencing they had for their horses here. Shouldn't be too hard to reuse around the barn & run.

I love your coop, Dobielover!! Beautiful. Now I want to paint mine white, too
I also really like how you integrated your brooder into the coop, will do more research on that for my own coop, too. I certainly have the space for it!!

 

[aart]

Good advice from 2 of the best above.
Flooring and bedding covered well, @DobieLover and I have much the same setup and management.


You didn't ask but, I'll just forge ahead and say it.
I see.....no ventilation.
Good to tackle right off the bat.
What's in the walls and ceiling?
Any rodent issues in barn?
Insulation can be good, but can also harbor rodents and other pests.
Will you be adding windows?
Pics from outside building might help size that up.

Oh, and....Welcome to BYC! @Rhendera
Thanks for adding your location<thumbsup>

...and Yes, chickeneering is a steep learning curve,
like getting a sip of water out of a fire hose.
Hang in there, it's worth the soaking.

 

[Rhendera]

Yep there are 2 large windows and we will put lots of ventilation in before winter starts. The barn is insulated but will have to make sure all the holes are secured, right now they are not. I was aware of needing much more ventilation.

I will take some pictures later today and post them. It needs lots of work.

I think I will just paint the floor with deck paint - I think that's the most economical option for this project, especially since the barn will be torn down in a few years.

 

[Ridgerunner]

First question: I don't care too much about the plywood degrading over time as we'll be tearing this barn down in a few years anyway. Should I just stay with the plywood? It's not nearly as easy to clean, though.

First, what level of "clean" are you talking about? Some people on this forum come across as thinking every bit of stain from poop has to go away. It's not "clean" unless it is spotless. You don't seem that kind but are you still going overboard? To me dry poop is not dirt, it's not filth. In a practical sense it is not worth worrying over. Wet poop can stink and can be unhealthy. Wet poop needs to go or needs to be dried out.

Are you talking about having to sometimes remove the bedding? It is not necessary to remove every grain of sand, wood shaving, piece of straw, whatever when you do that. You don't have to get every tiny speck of dried poop. My coop floor is dirt and I use wood shavings as bedding. On the very rare occasions I clean it out I do a rough raking and get the majority out with a shovel. Some of the shavings and poop gets left behind. It's not a problem.. You are not in the world of a teeny tiny elevated coop where they urge is to make it spotless whenever you clean it out. You are in a big walk-in coop. You are on a different scale.

I don't know how your barn floor is built or what shape that plywood is in. Ripping it out is probably not a good option. Unless you are going to fall through it when you walk on it I'd probably leave it as it is.

That leads me to question #2 that's related; floor litter?

The deep litter method is basically turning your coop floor into a compost pile. The bedding material provides the browns, the chicken poop provides the greens, plus the microbes that break it down need a certain level of moisture. Too much moisture and the microbes breaking it down become anaerobic, they stink and the stuff gets slimy. It is unhealthy. Too little moisture and the microbes can't live and reproduce. For true deep litter composting you have to manage the moisture. Some people truly treat it like a compost pile, tossing in kitchen wastes, garden wastes, grass clippings, whatever you would toss on a true compost pile.

I do not use the deep litter method, too much work for me. I keep my coop really dry. I use droppings boards, just raw plywood that I scrape pure poop off of when required. Others use different methods for droppings boards. Depending on conditions I might scrape my droppings board once a week when I have a lot of chickens in there and the weather is humid. With just a few chickens and in dry weather I might go 6 weeks. The key for me is smell. If I can smell it I waited too long. That pure poop goes on my compost pile.

One big difference in you and me is location. I seldom get poop freezing to the droppings board. Also, my chickens can spend all day practically every day outside. They are not inside the coop doing a lot of pooping. In your winters they may spend a lot of days indoors. Your conditions are different from mine. I clean the litter out of my coop once every 3 or 4 years. That's not because I have to but I want that stuff in my garden. I spread it and till it in in the fall, by planting time it's broken down enough.

Another difference is that my coop floor doesn't freeze. It stays so dry it probably wouldn't anyway. But yours will get that cold and, if it is moist it could freeze solid. Frozen poop is not going to give off much moisture and it will not break down, but spring thaw might be interesting, especially if the poop accumulates.

If you turn that floor into a compost pile it will speed the breakdown of your plywood. If it is really dry that breakdown will be a lot slower. And yes, painting it with a deck paint should help with that too.

And I would really like to use poop boards, wouldn't those defeat the purpose of deep litter? What would you guys do? Any other options?

Not sure of your purpose for wanting to use the deep litter method. If your purpose is to create compost fast, poop boards will slow the process unless you add more "greens" to the composting mix. If it is to keep the poop from building up to the point it is stinking, then the stuff will still compost, just a lot slower than optimum for making compost.

I don't know what the right answer for you is. You can try keeping it really dry and see how that works for you. I'd expect your results to be different from mine, to a large part because of location, but they may be OK for you. In any case, be flexible and adjust as required.

Then Question number #3 - There is a covered area right next to the barn that'll be perfect to convert to a run - but I am not sure if it'll be big enough. It's about 7ft by 18ft.

Chickens can not distinguish between "coop" space and "run" space. All they know is whether they have enough when they need it. Quality of space is important too. A cluttered area is better than a wide open space.

Chickens don't like change. When they wake up to a white world that is a big change. Mine tend to avoid snow like the plague for a few days, but eventually some will wander out in it. Mine are fine in a warm breeze but a cold wind is a big no-no. Mine will not venture out if a cold wind is hitting them. Cold temperatures don't bother mine but a cold wind does. A cover does not necessarily keep out wind-driven snow or a cold wind, though if that area is next to your barn it might not take much to create a cul-de-sac where wind can't get at them.

From a behavioral viewpoint I think you have plenty of room for 16 chickens in that coop, even without the run. If you can use that run you are much better off, pretty much a slam dunk. From a poop load build-up you may have to manage poop more often. But you will have to do that in your winter anyway.

we have LOTS of predators around. (Lynx, bears, wolves, coyotes, and I'm sure a whole host of the smaller predators, too

I agree electricity is a great way to deal with the larger predators. But you need to keep your chickens in and keep some of the smaller predators out. For this you are not looking for a strong wire a bear or wolf can't destroy. A weaker cheaper wire can work as long as the electricity keeps the big ones away. The cheaper hardware cloth isn't a bad option. I don't have your predators and went with 2" x 4" welded wire for big dogs, big raccoons, and coyotes, plus lined the inside bottom couple of feet with chicken wire. It's worked well for me but our situation is different.

 

[aart]

I think I will just paint the floor with deck paint - I think that's the most economical option for this project, especially since the barn will be torn down in a few years.

Oh well, yeah then ....go cheaper and easier.

 

[Rhendera]

Thank you all for your detailed replies ^_^ They really help!

Here are some additional pics of the barn, will be back later to reply in depth.

 

[Ted Brown]

Lots of good info above, thought I would add a bit based on my experience (similar climate as you).

1. Blackjack 57 is available in Canada and IMHO is a better option than porch paint. I paid about $60 for a 20 liter pail, cheaper than porch paint and seals/waterproofs more effectively. Stir it before use well (use a drill with a metal stirrer) and wait for a day above 5C.
2. Use drop boards with zeolite or sand or... Trying to get frozen droppings off wood DOES NOT WORK.
3. Use deep bedding rather than trying to get DLM working on a wooden floor. Use proper roosts, set them at least 12" above the drop boards and those at least 36"-48" off the floor (your back will thank you as you clean them each day). In my coop I used pine shavings mixed with straw, have added both during the winter but have yet to do a "deep clean" that replaces everything, hoping/thinking that is a once a year process. No smell, not much droppings on the bedding and what there is gets mixed in by the chickens or by you using a garden fork.
4. Forget about what you think is cold:

• do not add heat;
• get as much ventilation as possible through the coop;
• make sure the chickens roosts are out of any drafts;
• get cold hardy chickens.

5. I would bet you have mice at least in that barn, covered inside walls with insulation make perfect homes for little critters. However not much you can do about that other than to prepare to minimize impacts:

• keep all food in metal containers;
• keep as much food off the bedding as possible (use feeders that minimize spillage and get them off the floor);
• use traps (water in buckets with spinning dowels across the top) and go for control rather than elimination.

6. Focus, focus, focus on providing predator protections. The barn looks pretty well built so examine for small crevices, holes, window edges, etc.; lights on inside at night with cardboard over the windows and careful searching from outside may help. You will have mink, weasels, +? that are small enough to get through holes bigger than 1/2" and can do a lot of damage in a short time.
7. 1/4" hardware cloth uses 21 gauge wire, good for mice but not much else. Use 1/2" by 1/2 as it is strong enough to repel anything except bears, big and persistent dogs, others? As suggested above use electrical fence properly installed to augment the HC outside; keep your birds inside the coop at night. The best buy I could find on 1/2" HC was my local feed store - $115 for 50' by 4' plus tax.