Successful 100% forage diet experiment (long post)

[Florida Bullfrog]

Anything that adds to the learning experience on foraging/free-ranging is perfectly fine with me.

I think it would beneficial to point out that contrary to conventional wisdom and many websites, some or all chickens do in fact appear to have tapetum lucidum and a degree of night vision. When my free range flock of games/JF hybrids and guineas are disturbed at night, they fly off into the darkness and take cover until morning. Sometimes during the night they return to the original roost. They seem to have enough night vision to do that.

Here’s one of my American game bantams showing eyeshine. I’ll take pictures of my flock tonight to see if all have eyeshine or only the games, guineas, and turkeys.

Chickens confined in coops at night are denied the ability to fly away and take cover.

 

[AccidentalFarm]

I think it would beneficial to point out that contrary to conventional wisdom and many websites, some or all chickens do in fact appear to have tapetum lucidum and a degree of night vision. When my free range flock of games/JF hybrids and guineas are disturbed at night, they fly off into the darkness and take cover until morning. Sometimes during the night they return to the original roost. They seem to have enough night vision to do that.

Chickens confined in coops at night are denied the ability to fly away and take cover.

You know, I've never given this much thought, but it makes sense that they have at least some degree of night vision. I've seen them scatter in the darkness and end up back on the roost before daylight.

 

[AccidentalFarm]

When I was an installer/repairman at my job I went to many, many houses. I saw everything and some things I wish I could forget. People had chickens roaming all over at some houses and not a coop in sight or a barn for that matter. And out of nowhere a hen pops out of the bushes with a line of tiny chicks following along. They’re built for it. We’re the only ones that have a hard time with it, not the chickens. I really enjoyed reading about your experiment. Unfortunately I’m one of those people that’s scared to risk my investment of time and money to predators. Who knows, I may loosen up one of these days.

Well, to be fair, I haven't risked ALL my birds. LOL
I still have my older 'barn flock' that free ranges all day, but returns to the barn every night, which I close up.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Well, to be fair, I haven't risked ALL my birds. LOL
I still have my older 'barn flock' that free ranges all day, but returns to the barn every night, which I close up.

Same here, although in truth it’s the chickens that decide how much of a risk they take. I currently have 58 free range adult chickens. Exactly half (29) roost in a shed that was converted to a coop, and half (29) roost outside. I let them decide who wants to roost where. By either coincidence or instinct, the inside/outside roosting flocks are divided exactly evenly, although the outside flock then subdivides into 4 different groups by roosting location. But the outside roosting birds function as one combined group when foraging and separate from the inside roosting flock. Both of the two overall flocks is headed by a 1 year old bull stag. The two bull stags do not mix and will stare off with each other over long distances. The younger stags from each group intermingle slightly. Some hens intermingle a lot, others don’t intermingle at all.

 

[aart]

Exactly half (29) roost in a shed that was converted to a coop

@Florida Bullfrog Do you lock this up nightly?

 

[0die]

22 pages is a lot to skim through...so I might have missed some stuff and critical info...

Some thoughts and questions.

An animal is gonna do what an animal does. Since you are not managing them in a way, they are gonna go where they want, roost and lay where they want. they will find food or move on elsewhere. No surprises at all that you are not feeding and they are doing fine on their own since they are free to go anywhere without restraint.

I didn't see how many roosters in the group. I didn't catch any mention of a lost bird yet from this free group. Roosters are gonna defend their flock. That is their function. Predators, unless nothing else is available, will seek the easiest prey or source of food. It may just be luck there is easier food available so far.

How are you counting all the birds? I think you had something like 38 hatched. If they are staying out in the woods how are you doing a consistent daily head count?

The title is "forage diet experiment" but it does not seem you are really raising this flock for eggs but just to see if they can live without you feeding them. Like any animal it's gonna find food or move on. The objective should be to get them to forage 100% AND lay in the designated coop 100%. What you really want is all the eggs without the feeding.

The basic purpose for a human to have chickens is to harvest meat or eggs. The idea is that they provide you with eggs. It sounds like most all of the hens are laying out in the wild and not back in the coop. So instead when you are roaming around finding these eggs in the woods, you have in fact become the PREDATOR yourself since you are doing nothing really to care or maintain them. They don't associate you as a food source or tall rooster.

Is there a way to get all these birds to free range for all their needs but still feel compelled to return to the coop only to lay for you since you are not providing any incentive for them to do so otherwise? Since they are not being feed at the coop they probably don't view it or you as part of their life?

Perhaps build a coop with nesting boxes out in the woods where they are now living for them and see if they. As it is right now, it seems you are foraging for their eggs just the same as they are foraging for their food.

I've not slamming you in anyway. It's a great idea. I just don't see the 100% foraging experiment thing too relevant without the 100% egg harvest to go with it. If you can get the egg side of this figured out you will be my hero.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

@Florida Bullfrog Do you lock this up nightly?

Most nights, yes. On the nights I don’t I close the coop I close the run instead. I usually only leave the coop open and the run closed on mornings I want to sleep in.

Generally I don’t fail to close them up at night because I believe the coop roosting flock is more vulnerable than the outside roosting flock. I figure if a predator gets into the coop the chickens are going to be bottled up and unable to escape and the whole flock can be killed at once. The outside flock isn’t likely to lose more than one individual in a night attack. As it is, I’ve lost no birds in a confirmed night attack. I did lose one stag to a possible owl attack but I didn’t miss the stag or find his body until a couple of weeks later so I can’t confirm what bird of prey took him or when. I found his skeleton at the base of the tree he roosted under. But the sharp shinned hawk would also so catch sub adults in the same area under the same cover.

 

[iananderson]

My chickens beat predators. Chickens with the right wild instincts will learn to avoid predators just fine.

Mine do too. One Light Sussex is the 'cockerel' of my hens, bigger and bolder than the others and always the first to spot a predator, warning the others, once to her dear cost. She battled with a fox one day and lost so many feathers across the yard that I was sure I'd find her dead, but nope, bit battered, but still alive after forcing her way into a thick hedge.
They've survived stupid dog walkers, the fox as mentioned, and the ever present hen and sparrow hawks. Most are 6 or 7 years old now.

 

[AccidentalFarm]

I didn't see how many roosters in the group.

I have 9 roosters.

How are you counting all the birds? I think you had something like 38 hatched. If they are staying out in the woods how are you doing a consistent daily head count?

They stay out foraging all day, but return to their brooder house, or the general area each evening. Attempting an exact head count every night would be an exercise in futility, but I do watch for obvious missing birds. As a matter of fact, I found a decent amount of cuckoo feathers in a few places today. It was enough to warrant getting a count of all the cuckoo's I have. It turns out that I am shy exactly one cuckoo marans roo this evening.

The title is "forage diet experiment" but it does not seem you are really raising this flock for eggs but just to see if they can live without you feeding them. Like any animal it's gonna find food or move on. The objective should be to get them to forage 100% AND lay in the designated coop 100%. What you really want is all the eggs without the feeding.

That is not at all "what I really want". It may be YOUR objective, but it is not mine. I did not go into this to save money on feed and I've never cared at all about getting all, or even most, of the eggs. I know you said that you didn't read all of the posts, so you probably missed the one where I said that I don't like eggs, and probably also the one where I said that I don't sell eggs, but I do keep what my family can use and then I give all the rest away. My first post said the exact reason that I started this:

I am always interested in the threads talking about this because it just seems to me that 100% free-ranging is a species-appropriate life for a chicken, and in my mind, is the gold standard that I should strive for. Adding to that, I geek out on nutrition topics (humans AND animals), so the idea of truly unadulterated meat and eggs makes me swoon.

The basic purpose for a human to have chickens is to harvest meat or eggs. The idea is that they provide you with eggs. It sounds like most all of the hens are laying out in the wild and not back in the coop. So instead when you are roaming around finding these eggs in the woods, you have in fact become the PREDATOR yourself since you are doing nothing really to care or maintain them. They don't associate you as a food source or tall rooster.

Again, that is not my basic purpose. Assuming that I do nothing for them is false and I don't even know where to start refuting that idea. When I go into the woods, finding eggs is just a bonus, but it is not my ultimate purpose. I go out there at least 5X a week to see where the birds are congregating, try to assess what they are eating, watch their behavior, gauge their activity levels, take photographs, and basically just see what they are up to. They see me and come follow me around for a bit before wandering off somewhere else. They in no way see me as a predator. Also, they do not all lay eggs out in the woods. They have many nesting spots that they return to daily. Two are on my front deck, one is at the steps to my front deck, two more are under my back deck, 3 are still laying in their brooder house...I harvest more eggs than my family uses in just those nests.

They don't need to associate me with food or see me as a tall rooster. I can't really say what they think of me except that they like to come over and have a chat when they see me out and about.

Is there a way to get all these birds to free range for all their needs but still feel compelled to return to the coop only to lay for you since you are not providing any incentive for them to do so otherwise? Since they are not being feed at the coop they probably don't view it or you as part of their life?

They come back each evening. They roost in their brooder, on my lawnmower, on my buggy, on my deck, in the trees around my house. Many return to lay eggs in the brooder or in the places I mentioned above around the house.

I just don't see the 100% foraging experiment thing too relevant without the 100% egg harvest to go with it.

It was never about getting all the eggs.
It was never about saving money on feed.
It was about a species appropriate life for the birds.
It was about the possibility of unadulterated meat and eggs.

Honestly, I think you've missed the whole point of why I'm doing this.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Here's a pic that will hit on three aspects of free ranging at once:

1. They have night vision. I'm sure not as good as a cat, but any eyeshine is better than none and better than how our eyes process low light.

2. They can take the weather in the open just fine, at least to what north Florida throws at them. Its raining here tonight. The birds are pretty wet and the wind is blowing. Its in the 50s now and will be in the 40s by morning, then we'll probably have a good freeze tomorrow night.

The coldest the outside roosting flock has endured this year has been 20F in the wind and while wet. They were fine. In the mornings of a freeze they come off the roost with frosted feathers. Its a testament as to how well their feathers insulate as the ice isn't melted by the body heat. Not unlike a whitetail deer's coat that will hold snow and ice on the outer later without melting because the body heat is being so well contained underneath. Some will change over to trees on wet nights, but the main outside roosting flock prefers the wide open.

3. Nest boxes like this with fake eggs scattered around the farm about torso to chest high do a great job of causing them to lay where you can find the eggs easily.

So a bit more about the night vision; I went around the farm tonight and took pics of different birds. I noticed they all have eyeshine, but the games/wilds have it much more noticeable from all angles while the layers only have a little bit from some angles.

A group of my Crackers, an American game bantam, an aseel cross, guineas, and a turkey on the ground underneath them. Distance is 15 yards away and I'm shining them with a flashlight. Their eyeshine is visible through the rain.

So then I went to the coop flock:

I had to really try to get angles that showed it in the layers. It often didn't appear in the Liege birds either. Both breeds had it but not as intense at in the Crackers or the other gamefowl or game birds. I think the bird right of this Liege is a barnyard mix layer and it often didn't shine either, but in some pics it did.

The Liege with the gold hackles seemed to have it in all pics and angles.

I'm left suspecting that the potential for a degree of night vision varies across breeds and individuals.