Sumatra Thread!

[Infnityhrt]

You're absolutely correct in that there is a subjective element to judging any animal to it's respective breed standard. eg: "medium length back". What looks medium to me may well look short to you.
One point however: in the APA Apprenticeship program the prospective Judge doesn't work with one master judge but rather a minimum of 8 judges. Doesn't completely solve the subjectivity issue but it does broaden the base of experience.
Frankly I don't even remember the exchange you culled this quote from but I suspect it had something to do with a disgruntled [read unsuccessful] exhibitor attributing his/her lack of success to the fact that trained judges don't understand the Standard as well as s/he does.

It was from one of our exchanges way back, about weights, which, when you finally understood what I was saying you said I was right . I wasn't disgruntled at all and we have had pretty good success.

 

[ramirezframing]

Short or round does not mean small or medium either. It will make sence hopefully to you when you Read on page 21 And 22 It will tell you The Desirable head and body Characteris You should be looking for In all Breeds of chickens. One thing it says Is to look for width in the skull. So that doesn't tell me That it shouldn't be large Unless it states small or Medium.

Yes I have looked at those pictures, and all they mention for the head is width. I thought I covered this in my post in the first sentence (no bird being crow headed which means narrow headed). Then in the 3rd paragraph from the bottom up, I say how I think they should have a broad head (which just to let you know means width). The whole reason I put in the SOP for the cornish head is because it says that the cornish head is moderately large, were as they list no size for the sumatra head. You might want to re-read post 3121 again slowly and think about what was wrote there.

 

[ramirezframing]

I think first and foremost it should be about balance and symmentry when breeding birds, the head should fit the body. I think that you have to look at the whole bird. I am not sure how to describe it myself but they "fit" everything needs to flow, If the head is too big it would be just as bad as having a head to small, it has to be on each individual bird, personally I wouldn't want it to look like a big ol' tennis ball sitting on the bird, a tennis ball is what, three or four inches across? way to big for any head on a chicken LOL. I do like width between the eyes and understand round, it would be pretty much as broad as long and wide, but it should fit the bird. I do like a large dark eye also, with a little spark in it
I think that if you begin just focusing on one thing you begin to have birds that begin to look like they are pieced together.like they might of been made in frankenstien's shop.

Yes I agree the head should fit the birds whole body, as everything else should fit together also. The whole sumatra body should just flow freely into the next section, nice and smoothly. I know its odd, but when I think of a sumatra compared to my other breeds, the sumatras body just pops out as a speed boat. Smooth, graceful, and able to cut through the air easily. Which they do whenever I have to catch them.

 

[Coop Scoop Boogie]

First I'd like to apologize for the length this post will end up being.

The reason and purpose of my sumatras is for my pleasure......I don't like to show and it is a small
flock as I am not about selling for profit. I keep these birds because of their beauty. In my opinion
they are not a meat breed although they can be eaten. They are not bred to be the heavy bodied birds
meant for meat. They are not an egg production breed even though they do lay eggs that are quite
edible but not at production breed amounts. My birds are here because of how they look as a breed.
When people visit here they often think the sumatras are a hybrid between a chicken and a pheasant
and I do have both other breeds of chickens and some pheasants. I agree with them......sumatras don't
look like just a chicken and not just a pheasant either.

When I breed my birds it is to get birds that fit themselves.....are symmetrical. If I bred for big heads it would not fit the birds but I don't want a small head either......it must fit the bird. If I need my bird to have a shorter beak then I would breed to get a shorter beak, not a bigger head to hide the fact of a beak that is wrong. If my birds need longer tails then I breed for longer tails.....not shorter legs to hide the short-comings of an incorrect tail length. In my opinion breeding in faults to cover up faults is detrimental to the breed........breed for the correct birds......do the work.... and it does take time and work. I do try my best to keep a SOP correct bird but not every bird is going to be SOP correct. I enjoy discussing the ideas of what SOP is but it's hard when showing is thrown in as the only way to get SOP birds. To me showing is a venue of having your birds judge by others to how close to SOP they are and how well you are doing in your breeding program. Unfortunately some people who show are chasing ribbons and will breed any way they need to get those ribbons, and I am NOT saying anyone here is doing this. Judges are trained in what the SOP states but still in the long run they must use how they interpret the SOP and I am not saying they don't do this well but it's more that each judge has their idea of what the SOP is stating and this how one bird will win one show but not another, slight differences in how a judge thinks a bird represents the breed. But the judge can only judge what is in front of him and if those birds all have the same faults then he will place the ones that fit the SOP the best. This does not mean that bird is best from all sumatras, it only means it was the best bird at that show........ and more than likely the breeders
in an area are working towards the look of that bird because it won so a judge will end up seeing more of that type at shows and more of that type will be placed and the cycle continues. Showing is not required to breed good quality birds and there are lots of good breeders who don't show.

I hope I have not upset anyone and have explained my ideas so that everyone can understand. Lets discuss the breed and how to improve it. Lets discuss the points of the birds and how they fit the SOP. Leave the show ring out of it. The show ring is simply a gauge of how one is doing in that area of the country and against the people who show. I respect the opinions of judges, they are most often a good gauge of how good the birds presented to them are doing. Lets try to be open to others ideas but also understand that some of these ideas are not what others need. I think we will get farther with civil
open-minded chat.

off my soapbox now

 

[championsumatra]

I am surprised at you NYREDS. Especially That day When Dsfrango Told us about that show. She had said That she didn't understand Why That bird placed over Hers. She thought the other birds head was way to big. she Even told Us that you Had said One of the main reasons Why you chose that bird over hers Was because of the head size and development. You Even admitted That you Were judging that show. So what's the point here. When I think of a large head think of well a Developed Head that has more of The capacity to be well rounded, short, With a small beak. That's the cool thing about large heads. Is the beaks are really small so What That means Is You can easily Breed that with another bird with a long beak and have all the chicks come out With short beaks and well-rounded heads. Haven't you realized That there is a limit to roundness in a medium sized head. I have to say The birds head has to get pretty large before The Birds Head gets out of proportion to the boby. The reason why say that is because Chickens have small heads compared to their bodies. Just saying.

 

[Infnityhrt]

Well isn't that more closer to what standard says? I would think so. I am not just talking about the backs of a sumatra it has to do with improving your stock so that you can do well against top breeders. No one I know is going against the standard. sure they may have their own opinions but that is why you correct them and of corse they will oblige that you where right. Now I am not saying to do it with every breeder just do it with some breeders who know what they are doing so that you can improve in areas. One thing I have learned about breeders is they aren't going to tell you their secrets. So you have to take it in your hands. There is nothing wrong with getting some wiggle room in there. especially when you are doing well.

So is that why you correct everyone's opinion all the time? Trust me, I am not going to oblige you and say that you are right. We all have our own opinions, You can have yours and I will have mine and somebody else will have theirs, we are all entitled to our own opinions, Maybe if you quit trying to be "right" all the time, and just accept other peoples opinions we would have a lot less drama here.

 

[Infnityhrt]

First I'd like to apologize for the length this post will end up being.

The reason and purpose of my sumatras is for my pleasure......I don't like to show and it is a small
flock as I am not about selling for profit. I keep these birds because of their beauty. In my opinion
they are not a meat breed although they can be eaten. They are not bred to be the heavy bodied birds
meant for meat. They are not an egg production breed even though they do lay eggs that are quite
edible but not at production breed amounts. My birds are here because of how they look as a breed.
When people visit here they often think the sumatras are a hybrid between a chicken and a pheasant
and I do have both other breeds of chickens and some pheasants. I agree with them......sumatras don't
look like just a chicken and not just a pheasant either.

When I breed my birds it is to get birds that fit themselves.....are symmetrical. If I bred for big heads it would not fit the birds but I don't want a small head either......it must fit the bird. If I need my bird to have a shorter beak then I would breed to get a shorter beak, not a bigger head to hide the fact of a beak that is wrong. If my birds need longer tails then I breed for longer tails.....not shorter legs to hide the short-comings of an incorrect tail length. In my opinion breeding in faults to cover up faults is detrimental to the breed........breed for the correct birds......do the work.... and it does take time and work. I do try my best to keep a SOP correct bird but not every bird is going to be SOP correct. I enjoy discussing the ideas of what SOP is but it's hard when showing is thrown in as the only way to get SOP birds. To me showing is a venue of having your birds judge by others to how close to SOP they are and how well you are doing in your breeding program. Unfortunately some people who show are chasing ribbons and will breed any way they need to get those ribbons, and I am NOT saying anyone here is doing this. Judges are trained in what the SOP states but still in the long run they must use how they interpret the SOP and I am not saying they don't do this well but it's more that each judge has their idea of what the SOP is stating and this how one bird will win one show but not another, slight differences in how a judge thinks a bird represents the breed. But the judge can only judge what is in front of him and if those birds all have the same faults then he will place the ones that fit the SOP the best. This does not mean that bird is best from all sumatras, it only means it was the best bird at that show........ and more than likely the breeders
in an area are working towards the look of that bird because it won so a judge will end up seeing more of that type at shows and more of that type will be placed and the cycle continues. Showing is not required to breed good quality birds and there are lots of good breeders who don't show.

I hope I have not upset anyone and have explained my ideas so that everyone can understand. Lets discuss the breed and how to improve it. Lets discuss the points of the birds and how they fit the SOP. Leave the show ring out of it. The show ring is simply a gauge of how one is doing in that area of the country and against the people who show. I respect the opinions of judges, they are most often a good gauge of how good the birds presented to them are doing. Lets try to be open to others ideas but also understand that some of these ideas are not what others need. I think we will get farther with civil
open-minded chat.

off my soapbox now

Totally agree, when we first got chickens it was an order from McMurray hatchery in 2001 and our order was 25 chicks and our one exotic, When we placed the order I think it was for 18 different breeds, Our first Sumatra turned out to be a cockerel from there and I loved the wild look and totally fell in love with the breed, we didn't even know poultry shows existed. I had always shown horses at the fair and looking through the fair book saw that they had something for poultry, I thought great the kids love the chickens that would be good for them. They ended up winning showmanship and Best in Show with their little d'uccle and we were hooked. We started learning even more and going to open shows and getting better birds. The kids changed breeds and we have had polish, wyandottes, black east indies, white calls.. the list goes on, lots of different birds over the last 13 years, but the one that has been with us from the very beginning has been the Sumatras, they have been my breed, my daughter has always shown the bantams, she is known for using the sumatras for showmanship, except the few times she used a call duck and even a guinea, she likes the challenge of trainging LOL. To me it doesn't matter whether you show or not, its about the bird, same here for me first and foremost. I am fortunate we do well I Thank God for blessing us with this beautiful bird, and like you, when people come over its always what kind of bird is that? os that's a chicken? They always say they look like something wild.

 

[Coop Scoop Boogie]

I am surprised at you NYREDS. Especially That day When Dsfrango Told us about that show. She had said That she didn't understand Why That bird placed over Hers. She thought the other birds head was way to big. she Even told Us that you Had said One of the main reasons Why you chose that bird over hers Was because of the head size and development. You Even admitted That you Were judging that show. So what's the point here. When I think of a large head think of well a Developed Head that has more of The capacity to be well rounded, short, With a small beak. That's the cool thing about large heads. Is the beaks are really small so What That means Is You can easily Breed that with another bird with a long beak and have all the chicks come out With short beaks and well-rounded heads. Haven't you realized That there is a limit to roundness in a medium sized head. I have to say The birds head has to get pretty large before The Birds Head gets out of proportion to the boby. The reason why say that is because Chickens have small heads compared to their bodies. Just saying.

Okay.....let me say this is NOT an attack but an opinion and discussion.

I don't completely agree with the statement. In breeding these two birds all the chicks could have
the genetic potential to have too long of a beak, too short of a beak and an ideal beak. Some of those
chicks WILL not have the beak you want, it's the luck of the draw so to say. Also ANY size head has no
limit to how round it is or isn't but I don't feel a perfectly round head is the most common head.

I feel I should add that if I ask a question I expect that some of the answers given will not be what I
agree with but others are giving me the points of view and I had asked for them by asking the question. I
am happy to discuss the differences of opinion in a fair manner, not an argument.

 

[ramirezframing]

I agree with Coopscoop and Infnityhrt. Out of all my birds, my sumatras look more like my pheasants in body shape, more on the wild side.

 

[ramirezframing]

Quote:
A large head does not always mean a short beak, and as Coopscoop has said, its a roll of the genetic dice to how the chicks come out.