Sustainable breeding with small numbers?

[Beekissed]

I guess "large" is very subjective, but we dont really want/need/or can afford to feed what I at least would a consider a "large flock of hens"-- unless you consider 12-18 max "large." Doesn't this seem a bit small for such flock breeding to be sustainable? Or...would it actually not be so? After the first generation with only two cocks mating (with one usually dominant and breeding more I would project) at least half of all subsequent matings would be half siblings and because of the small number of chosen breeding hens, many full. Please forgive my skepticism that this just doesnt seem very sustainable---but...by all means please set me straight if my notions are indeed mistaken...?!

I'm doing it right now, though with only one cock bird and 12 hens. I don't mind that the cock is mating with mothers, aunts or half sibs, as long as my goals are being met...and they are. When they are no longer being met with this type of breeding I'll reevaluate but right now I'm getting the egg supply I was shooting for and am able to keep a few of the best hens from each mating season, while eating extra cockerels that are large and meaty....a highly productive and sustainable flock are my goals but I don't want to have to build multiple penning situations and keep multiple cockbirds on hand to achieve it, so flock breeding is my choice of method for that. Breed the best, cull the rest.

Last infusion of new genetics via the male was 3 yrs ago, a truly handsome gift from a great breeder...I'm currently using his best male offspring as my breeder and will continue to do so until I see him produce something better than himself or he lessens in fertility, then I'll either keep the son and cull the father and continue onward or opt for new blood. We'll see how it goes along.

 

[lazy gardener]

Quote: And, that is exactly how easy and simple it can be to breed forward for continued flock improvement. My Avatar is entering his third breeding season. As he matures, he becomes a better flock master. I love watching him when I let the flock out in the morning. He rushes to the food, and then stands back and watches while his ladies get their fill. And he's a wonderful family man. He loves his babies. When he is no longer able to perform his duties, it will be a sad day when he's replaced. But, I'm already planning to put a couple of cockrels in the flock this season, just to be prepared.

This spring, I plan to remove the gals I don't want to propagate from to the spare coop. That way, any eggs that go into bator will be the best of the best. And of those, I intend to do gender selection again!

 

[donrae]

While I appreciate the research and thought you're putting into this, I really do think you're overthinking it. You're making things way more complicated than they need to be, IMO.

You basically want a laying flock, keeping about a dozen hens, correct? Not so much for the meat side of things.

With your current chicks, you'll have probably 8-12 pullets. Keep them all, unless there are obvious reasons to cull any. Pick your best 2 cockerels and keep them.

Raised together, they should all be fine living in one flock.

Next spring, hatch some chicks. You're looking to keep numbers small, so one or two hatches should do the trick. You can cull the males young, or grow them out for butcher. Raise up however many pullets you want to add or use as replacements, cull out however many older hens you decide need to go.

Discard your feelings about parent/offspring matings. Poultry folks do it all the time. If you start with decent stock, you can do it several generations and not have any issues.The birds will tell you if you need to bring in new blood. If you have hatchability issues, low fertility, low productivity, failure to thrive, bring in a new rooster.

Continue to hatch a few chicks each spring, culling out older birds or anyone else who needs to go in the fall.

After about 4 years, you may see a decline infertility in your original roosters. This varies, of course, some go longer, some shorter. At that point, you can order some more chicks. 4 years really isn't that often to utilize a hatchery, or by then, honestly, who knows what may be happening in your life. You may have sparked interest in your breed locally and have someone who brought in different blood themselves. You may fall in love with another breed. You may have a predator or natural disaster wipe out your entire flock. Or, your breedings may be producing wonderful birds and you simply keep over a young cockerel and put him as flock master, related or not.

Like I said, I do appreciate your planning and all the theory you've researched, but I do think you're making things way harder on yourself.

 

[Mrs. K]

A very interesting conversation, but I agree ^^ with Donrae.

I too, have made a lot of plans. Other things happen. It really is a slow process.

Yes I think you can definitely do this.... luck will determine how long you can do it.

Mrs K

 

[centrarchid]

I am not really clear on OP's situation and I think no here is any better than I. First post suggested OP is on a island with import restrictions making refreshing flock with new blood impractical, at least not to be taken lightly. OP also has a good concept of long-term where most mainland poultry keepers are locked into short-term not thinking beyond a couple to a few years.

 

[triplepurpose]

Like I said, I do appreciate your planning and all the theory you've researched, but I do think you're making things way harder on yourself. 

Ah yes, well, haha, story of my life sometimes... And point well taken.

Thank you sooo much for all of your thoughtful responses on this--all of you guys!

I really appreciate it, and its been very helpful...

 

[triplepurpose]

I am not really clear on OP's situation and I think no here is any better than I. First post suggested OP is on a island with import restrictions making refreshing flock with new blood impractical, at least not to be taken lightly. OP also has a good concept of long-term where most mainland poultry keepers are locked into short-term not thinking beyond a couple to a few years.

Yes, basically obtaining new blood easily (at least for a rarer breed like doms--if I werent so particular I could just trap one of the many wild chickens that infest us) means ordering from a largescale hatchery and we have to order normally at least twenty (sometimes 25) or survivability is questionable. Shipping also is more expensive and the chicks are stuck in the mail an extra day or two. And then there is always a certain distaste with the whole thing--we would so much prefer to support devoted breeders rather than mass hatcheries. Ordering hatching eggs is theoretically possible, but honestly I havent even looked too far into it because most breeders dont even want to get involved with it because of the paperwork and hassle. (Though if these birds wind up being a disappointment we may have to revisit that more...) And Besides, even then there is always the issue of hatchibility with the shipped eggs. Hatcheries are simpler to deal with because they will handle the import permit process for you--the ones that will ship to us that is, because not all will. Yes, living in Hawaii has its definite downsides...

Sorry, Ill stop griping now...

 

[centrarchid]

If it were me, then I would periodically select from the feral chickens already present on the island for new blood. Then maintain selection for the dom look and performance. Over time doms are your island would develop a genetic signature that may have adaptions making them better suited for your location. Effectively you would be developing a landrace of Dominiques unique to your island.

 

[triplepurpose]

If it were me, then I would periodically select from the feral chickens already present on the island for new blood. Then maintain selection for the dom look and performance. Over time doms are your island would develop a genetic signature that may have adaptions making them better suited for your location. Effectively you would be developing a landrace of Dominiques unique to your island.

Well, Ive thought about similar ideas before, and I admit the idea intrigues me, but the list of traits in the wild/feral birds (a mixed bag, but a lot of game blood in there too from the many such illiscit breeders here) is long on things i WOULDN'T want actually want in a laying line of doms, to be sure: low and variable rates of lay, extreme broodiness, very small eggs, wild-type coloration, rather puny size, flightiness/aggression. and then there's always disease issues to consider. Im new to selective breeding, but this still seems like it could be a lot of trouble to have to periodically cull all this out just fir the sake of new blood... Just how hard would it be to recover the right coloring and other dom traits?

 

[centrarchid]

I use games (like those on your island) as part of my breeding program. With a stock that is about 50% game no loss of egg production has been realized. Overall vitality was improved.