Swedish Flower Hen Thread

[ki4got]

Quote: yes, amprollium is a thiamine blocker, which prevents the organism from reproducing... the levels in the feed are too low to actually do much if they have coccidia, but enough to cause problems long term. i decided to only treat if they show symptoms, with medicated water for 5 days. short enough of a time period to not do lasting damage to the chicklets but long enough to kill off any coccidia present.

i had some chicks that went out then came back in because it got way colder way faster than they were ready for, that started showing mild symptoms, so i started them on the water asap... interesting to note, once the'd been on it for 2 days, feed consumption went WAY down... thinking the coccidia was hampering their ability to digest/absorb nutrients, so they thought they were always starving. the older chicks went outside about 2 weeks ago now, and the middle chicks (3-6 weeks old) all went outside today. (with heat in the house). oh boy did they have fun digging for worms n bugs n stuff. LOL older chicks started free ranging 3 days ago, and were wandering as far as the horse's water tanks this morning... i'd say about 75-80 yards from 'home'. adventurous little buggers.

btw, no sfh, all cochins and dorkings for now.

 

[lcatty]

Quote:Originally Posted by Bulldogma


Mine were 17 weeks old. They had been started on the medicated feed, but when I learned that medications were causing issues for SFHs I took them off it - a number of months ago. I'm fairly certain it was not a vitamin deficiency as I feed fermented feed and they free range all day.

The nearest place that could do a necropsy for us is 90 minutes away, and would have charged an arm and a leg, so unfortunately I couldn't have the necropsy done. I don't know for sure that it was Marek's, but I do know that both birds presented nearly identical symptoms. Inga's symptoms came on quickly, but Frederic's came on slowly. Weird!


I'm quite certain this IS the case! This is one of the reasons I started feeding fermented feed - it allows the birds to get much higher nutritional value from the feed. Yet - not knowing the exact difference in minerals in southern Swedish soil, I'm sure that is where many of our birds become deficient.

I'd love to know what minerals would best help these birds.


Mentioned this above

That said, if this was Marek's, I feel better knowing that the rest of my flock is resistant to the disease which would indicate naturally stronger genetics in those birds - totally worth breeding for this kind of resistance!! Of course I'm keeping my fingers crossed and prayers flying up to heaven that none of the others come down with it, but so far, so good!

So - over the next days, I'll be researching naturally occurring minerals in southern Sweden, and whether or not Marek's is present in Sweden.


Please let us know what you find out! I had quite a few problems with some of my original live SFH chicks- badly splayed legs on a couple, a couple more w/ crooked toes. Anyway, with my next shipment of live chicks last November, and with the babies hatched by hens this summer, I stopped medicated feed for the babies plus I put Poly-vi-sol in their water. One pullet from last November began to have problems, then healed as soon as I added the vitamins to the water. Otherwise not one splayed leg or crooked toe with any of them. Anecdotal, yes, but it made me wonder.

 

[Bulldogma]

Try mixing it with yogurt or putting freeze-dried mealworms on top as an enticement. I think once they try it they will love it. Mine attack it when I bring it out, but as chicks they regularly got kefir mixed with their feed as a treat.

As for the medicated feed issue, someone months ago mentioned that the medication in the feed interferes with the up take of at least one important vitamin or mineral - was it thiamine? I forget, but the conversation was on this thread some time ago.

OK - feeling a little heartbroken right now. Inga and Frederic may NOT have had Marek's but Curly Toe Syndrome which is caused by a deficiency in riboflavin!

"RIBOFLAVIN DEFICIENCY
Many tissues may be affected by riboflavin deficiency, although the epithelium and the myelin sheaths of some of the main nerves are major targets. Changes in the sciatic nerves produce “curled-toe” paralysis in growing chickens. Deficient chicks are reluctant to move unless forced and then frequently walk on their hocks with the aid of their wings. The leg muscles are atrophied and flabby, and the skin is dry and harsh. In advanced stages of deficiency, the chicks lie prostrate with their legs extended, sometimes in opposite directions. The characteristic sign of riboflavin deficiency is a marked enlargement of the sciatic and brachial nerve sheaths; sciatic nerves usually show the most pronounced effects. Histologic examination of the affected nerves shows degenerative changes in the myelin sheaths that, when severe, pinch the nerve. This produces a permanent stimulus, which causes the curled-toe paralysis.

Signs of riboflavin deficiency in the hen are decreased egg production, increased embryonic mortality, and an increase in size and fat content of the liver. Hatchability declines within 2 wk when hens are fed a riboflavin-deficient diet, but returns to near normal when riboflavin is restored. Affected embryos are dwarfed and show characteristically defective “clubbed” down. The nervous system of these embryos shows degenerative changes much like those described in riboflavin-deficient chicks."

So now the question is, "What could have caused these birds to not properly absorb riboflavin?"

 

[Bulldogma]

After further research, I don't think my birds had either curly toe syndrome or Marek's. Curly toe generally affects younger chicks and not 17-week-old birds in this manner. Marek's usually causes the leg to stiffen and go straight out to the side or back - but with my birds their legs presented more like they had been injured... loose, curled under them and after a number of days, they seemed to become atrophied.

So I still don't have answers - but the rest of the flock is healthy and happy.

 

[lcatty]

OK - feeling a little heartbroken right now. Inga and Frederic may NOT have had Marek's but Curly Toe Syndrome which is caused by a deficiency in riboflavin!

"RIBOFLAVIN DEFICIENCY
Many tissues may be affected by riboflavin deficiency, although the epithelium and the myelin sheaths of some of the main nerves are major targets. Changes in the sciatic nerves produce “curled-toe” paralysis in growing chickens. Deficient chicks are reluctant to move unless forced and then frequently walk on their hocks with the aid of their wings. The leg muscles are atrophied and flabby, and the skin is dry and harsh. In advanced stages of deficiency, the chicks lie prostrate with their legs extended, sometimes in opposite directions. The characteristic sign of riboflavin deficiency is a marked enlargement of the sciatic and brachial nerve sheaths; sciatic nerves usually show the most pronounced effects. Histologic examination of the affected nerves shows degenerative changes in the myelin sheaths that, when severe, pinch the nerve. This produces a permanent stimulus, which causes the curled-toe paralysis.

Signs of riboflavin deficiency in the hen are decreased egg production, increased embryonic mortality, and an increase in size and fat content of the liver. Hatchability declines within 2 wk when hens are fed a riboflavin-deficient diet, but returns to near normal when riboflavin is restored. Affected embryos are dwarfed and show characteristically defective “clubbed” down. The nervous system of these embryos shows degenerative changes much like those described in riboflavin-deficient chicks."

So now the question is, "What could have caused these birds to not properly absorb riboflavin?"

I don't know about the absorption factor, but really, try poly-vi-sol infant vitamins in the water. I had one hen completely recover after I did that. When I did it from the get-go, no problems at all. Get the kind without added iron and put about two dropper-fuls per gallon. Keep it up until the chicks are about four months old.

 

[lcatty]

I don't know about the absorption factor, but really, try poly-vi-sol infant vitamins in the water. I had one hen completely recover after I did that. When I did it from the get-go, no problems at all. Get the kind without added iron and put about two dropper-fuls per gallon. Keep it up until the chicks are about four months old.

I forgot to add, the hen from the second batch of Greenfire chicks that eventually recovered was close to two months old when she started to limp, and at rest she had one leg curled under her I had other chickens from the first batch who just developed crooked toes, but that was at over three months of age when I started to see it. And two hens from the first batch I ended up having to put down because they could no longer walk and legs were splayed out in front and back. It looked like this at first, then got progressively worse:





This is Sandy, from the first batch of Greenfire chicks. Before I put her down I had blood test done which came back negative for Marek's disease. At the end it looked just like photos you see of Marek's, with legs splayed out in front and back, total paralysis of her legs. I had a photo of the later stage but cannot find it right now.

I know the literature says curly-toe will develop very early-on but I wonder if that is always the case because some of my birds, as I said, showed symptoms of muscle weakness, or simply crooked toes, later on at two, three, four months. At this point I'm nearly convinced that this breed has vitamin problems of some sort and that it doesn't necessarily show up right away.

Gosh I wish we could talk to the Swedish folks about their experiences over time.

 

[Bulldogma]

I forgot to add, the hen from the second batch of Greenfire chicks that eventually recovered was close to two months old when she started to limp, and at rest she had one leg curled under her I had other chickens from the first batch who just developed crooked toes, but that was at over three months of age when I started to see it. And two hens from the first batch I ended up having to put down because they could no longer walk and legs were splayed out in front and back. It looked like this at first, then got progressively worse:





This is Sandy, from the first batch of Greenfire chicks. Before I put her down I had blood test done which came back negative for Marek's disease. At the end it looked just like photos you see of Marek's, with legs splayed out in front and back, total paralysis of her legs. I had a photo of the later stage but cannot find it right now.

I know the literature says curly-toe will develop very early-on but I wonder if that is always the case because some of my birds, as I said, showed symptoms of muscle weakness, or simply crooked toes, later on at two, three, four months. At this point I'm nearly convinced that this breed has vitamin problems of some sort and that it doesn't necessarily show up right away.

Gosh I wish we could talk to the Swedish folks about their experiences over time.

What are you feeding and what kind of plant life are your birds around and able to eat? This sounds like what happened to mine and I didn't realize anyone else had seen similar symptoms.

We have to wonder -
Is this a deficiency of some sort?
Is this a toxicity issue where they are eating something that is making them ill?
Is there a genetic factor at play here?
How do we fix this?

My birds get fermented feed - commercial mixed feed. They have access to a lot of acorns, fescue, clover and a lot of other plant life found in southern VA.
We have a lot of red clay for soil, and my birds have access to a parking area that has gravel that was brought in from elsewhere??? There are cattle in the field near them.

What factors are similar in our cases?

 

[bantycrazed]

looking for a roo if anyone in eastern tennessee that they need to get rid of my roo recenly died and need a new one to mate with my hen

 

[Dahlisgrams]

What are you feeding and what kind of plant life are your birds around and able to eat? This sounds like what happened to mine and I didn't realize anyone else had seen similar symptoms.

We have to wonder -
Is this a deficiency of some sort?
Is this a toxicity issue where they are eating something that is making them ill?
Is there a genetic factor at play here?
How do we fix this?

My birds get fermented feed - commercial mixed feed. They have access to a lot of acorns, fescue, clover and a lot of other plant life found in southern VA.
We have a lot of red clay for soil, and my birds have access to a parking area that has gravel that was brought in from elsewhere??? There are cattle in the field near them.

What factors are similar in our cases?

This topic is more timely than imaginable. I took a polish pullet that I believed was injured in for a necropsy just to make sure it wasn't a disease. The specialist at Cornell looked at her and told me this morning that it's a vitamin e deficiency and that it can cause neurological issues, including curled toes. The pullet looked just like the photos offered here. I am going to do some serious investigating and feed changes. It turns out I switched feed 3 weeks ago, right before this began for my pullet. I realize she isn't a sfh, but the symptoms are the same. I have to wonder if there isn't an e deficiency in more than this location. I hope this helps.

 

[Knock Kneed Hen]

I had some deformed chicks from the feed store a couple of years ago and discovered that a vit B deficiency in the feed caused them all to have rickets. With lots of vitamins and bandaging I saved one, the others went off to necropsy (therefore finding the cause). Since then I always add vitamins to new chicks water.

I recently dewormed and dusted my flock for mites. The day after most of them were walking backwards. I have them with my mixed flock right now and only the Swedes were doing this. I added Nutri-Drench to the water for a few days and they're fine now. I was keeping an organic flock up until then, but despite all my efforts with DE, ACV, Pumpkin seeds, yogurt, etc...my flock had mites and I found a heavy tapeworm load in one hen.