Swedish Flower Hen Thread

[lonnyandrinda]

I saw that discussion and I don't think the person was referring to the crested gene itself as fatal, but the crested to crested breeding which increases the vaulted skulls. Vaulted skulls do appear to increase fatality in SFH chicks. IF they hatch, the odds of survival are slim. Most SFH breeders aim for crested to uncrested breeding to avoid this problem.

Ah thanks that is the best explanation I have heard so far.

Regarding that comment about the crested vs non crested imports. Does that mean GFF got their imports from both places? Just interested. I have 2013 GFF chicks as flock starters. Eventually I'd like a cockerel from somewhere else to expand the genetic choices. Would getting eggs or a chick from someone else who has had SFH for a couple years count as different genetics even though the odds are high they came from GFF too?

I do remember GFF on their webpage mentioned that the first flock they sourced from was uncrested as that particular breeder selected for non-crested birds in his breeding program. The crested birds came from another flock in a different part of Sweden. So if you have crested birds they are from at least one additional import line.

 

[HaplessRunner]

Ah thanks that is the best explanation I have heard so far.


I do remember GFF on their webpage mentioned that the first flock they sourced from was uncrested as that particular breeder selected for non-crested birds in his breeding program. The crested birds came from another flock in a different part of Sweden. So if you have crested birds they are from at least one additional import line.

Rinda,

As was posted on the cream legbar FB page, the issue is not the gene for cresting but the potential for a vaulted skull in SFH and the resultant issues. Like you noted cream legbars, silkies, and Polish do not have the mortality problems associated with vaulted skulls. (Caveat - I do not raise them. So I do not know from personal experience, just some heavy reading) Silkies, I understand do fine with vaulted skulls from what others have reported. Some SFH survive and do OK with a vaulted skull but most do not make it. Matching a crested SFH roo with a crested SFH hen does not guarantee a vaulted skull outcome but it does significantly increase the probability.

If you have a SFH with an "overly large" crest, you would be well advised to breed that one to a non-crested SFH. This should eliminate any vaulted skull concerns. I have both crested and uncrested hens. My roosters are all uncrested. So presumably, I should have no issues.

Always something new to learn with chickens

Tony

 

[ki4got]

Quote: I agree with what Leigh said... DRY INCUBATE! add NO water until lockdown... as for the LG, is it circulated air or still air? if it's still air, GET A FAN! I hear about nothing but problems with still air and sfh (and most other breeds) maybe 1 in 20 likes their still air from what I've heard/read. you can add a $5 computer case fan with an old cell phone charger easily enough. just measure the spacing between the holes to match up the fan. (120mm or 150mm I think)

I use nothing BUT Hovabator. I wouldn't call them crummy at all, since my 4 have hatched literally thousands of eggs over the last 3-4 years... MOST of them in the last year have been sfh (from Leigh's flock since mine were stubborn until recently!) to give an idea of hatch rates, after removing clears (I can't control that part, that's the rooster's job) the last 3 hatches I had 9/12, 18/20 and 25/30 (but one turned into a silkie! LOL)

again, dry incubate (I range 10-20% depending on seasons) and 55-65% humidity for lockdown (I use a separate hatcher since I rotate hatching weekly!) and tho I say these are 'local' eggs, they still travel over 2 hours to get here, so it's not like go out and collect and put them in the incubator LOL

 

[ki4got]

re: crested to crested, vaulted skulls, etc...

breeds where vaulted skulls are the norm, they have been selected over many generations for survivability, so the vaulted skull itself is no longer much of an issue...

in the SFH, crested to crested breeding CAN increase the chances of vaulted skulls. I don't know if the vaulted skull happens 100% with homozygous crested birds or if it's just a chance among them, but homozygous crested birds DO seem to have considerably larger crests than heterozygous crested birds. An argument can be made that in a landrace situation, homozygous crested birds are eliminated naturally by predation, since it's quite possible they may not see the predator that eats them. I know a few people who've had just that problem...

personally, my roosters are uncrested, and I will only keep hens with average to small crests (currently only 3 mature girls, 1 is crested). my first 'homegrown' sfh eggs are in the incubator, with more ready to set today. all 3 of my girls are finally laying. we'll see if it's been enough time since they've been free ranged. mutts will be obvious with either odd combs (pea = EE, rose = blrw) or 5 toes (dorking) or feathered legs (ee rooster is 1/4 silkie).
one advantage of having the mix I do, mutts are easily identified...

 

[cleansquared]

Different topic- someone on a FB group said that the cresting gene in SFH is a "fatal gene" meaning that when you breed two crested birds together you have a much higher chick mortality rate from skull deformities.  That's a new one for me.  I know it's not true for silkies, Polish, and Cream Legbars so I assume they are just full of it.  I know silkies in particular are more susceptible to blows to the head though due to the skull shape.  Have any of you with crested flocks experienced higher mortality rates in your chicks?

while cream leg bar breeders here dont seem to care and are breeding crested to crested in the uk ive read alot about them only breeding crested to non this would accomplish two things 1) prevent and take out of the equasion the chance for skull deformity 2) this would create a much hardier chicken (geneticly speaking) and so you can prevent alot of the issues that come from straight li ne breeding by using this method so you always have a geneticly vigiorous chicken. I do this with my cream leg bars

 

[lonnyandrinda]

while cream leg bar breeders here dont seem to care and are breeding crested to crested in the uk ive read alot about them only breeding crested to non this would accomplish two things 1) prevent and take out of the equasion the chance for skull deformity 2) this would create a much hardier chicken (geneticly speaking) and so you can prevent alot of the issues that come from straight li ne breeding by using this method so you always have a geneticly vigiorous chicken. I do this with my cream leg bars

I've been breeding all crested cl birds for two years with no problems. You dont see people breeding crestless polish or crestless silkies? The standard is for cresting so i dont see the point in breeding them crestless. In the uk they breed crested birds together with no ill effect. Just my two cents to each their own.

 

[Bulldogma]

I've been breeding all crested cl birds for two years with no problems. You dont see people breeding crestless polish or crestless silkies? The standard is for cresting so i dont see the point in breeding them crestless. In the uk they breed crested birds together with no ill effect. Just my two cents to each their own.

Some breeds have been bred crest to crest for hundreds of years and have adapted.

There is a known issue with breeding crested SFH to crested SFH - high mortality, vaulted skulls, inability to hatch...

Every breed is different and has evolved differently. In the southern regions of Sweden, farms had mostly uncrested birds. Other regions to the north had primarily crested birds. We can assume a certain amount of evolutions in those regions that kept primarily crested birds... and that birds from regions that kept primarily uncrested birds would likely have different genetics. Thus, it is likely that the most fatal of crosses result from breeding crested birds to heterozygous crested birds with a primarily uncrested lineage who have not had time to evolve to the point of lower mortality rates from homozygous crests.

Long story short... a Swedish Flower Hen is not a Silkie or a Polish. Just because one can breed other breeds to have heterozygous genetics for crests does not mean the same can be applied to a breed where at least half the gene pool is not meant to be crested.

 

[Leahs Mom]

Okay. This is a bit confusing to me.

If there were primarily crested birds in certain regions, they would undoubtedly be breeding crest to crest if there weren't any non crested birds. Right?

 

[SunnySkies]

Regarding that comment about the crested vs non crested imports.  Does that mean GFF got their imports from both places?  Just interested.  I have 2013 GFF chicks as flock starters.  Eventually I'd like a cockerel from somewhere else to expand the genetic choices.  Would getting eggs or a chick from someone else who has had SFH for a couple years count as different genetics even though the odds are high they came from GFF too?

My understanding is all the imports have come from different sources. The latest import apparently came from a farm that was selecting for larger eggs.

Okay.  This is a bit confusing to me.

If there were primarily crested birds in certain regions, they would undoubtedly be breeding crest to crest if there weren't any non crested birds.  Right?

this may have happened. I do suspect that the hatch rate as well as predator pressure probably minimized most double crested birds from surviving. It doesn't mean they didn't have any non crested birds...could be they had crested hens and a noncrested rooster. I just do not think the double crested birds did well...or we would see a lot of SFH with big poofy crests naturally popping out of many crosses, and we just don't.

 

[Bulldogma]

That's correct. To my understanding, the crested flocks were found north of the original uncrested flocks from the first import.

The birds from uncrested flocks may not do as well if crossed and then re-crossed with crested birds because their genetics haven't adapted yet. (This is all assumption.) But the crested flocks have been bred with crests for years... thus I believe they have adapted - the weaker ones died out and only the stronger ones lived and bred.

The uncrested flocks still possess some of the genetics that don't do well with the crest...

Uncrested from uncrested flock X Crested from crested flock = Heterozygous Crested bird with mixed bloodline.
Heterozygous Crested bird with mixed bloodline X Heterozygous Crested bird with mixed bloodline = Homozygous crested bird with a 50% genetic makeup from uncrested flocks... potentially = higher mortality rates.

My thought is that the flocks that were bred for many years to have crests don't have issues with the homozygous crests - but here in the US we're mixing those with uncrested bloodlines with crested bloodlines and perhaps this is where the problem comes from.

Again - this is a theory...