Tell me about your internal layers

[Erica]

Some extra thoughts about management — not pointing fingers, just adding to the list of possible causes to weigh up.

- When pullets are changed too early to a high calcium diet, their shellmaking ability later in life can be badly compromised. This predisposes them to poor laying and soft shells which break internally, because they can't absorb enough calcium when they need to.

- If phosphorus is too high compared to calcium, or if there's too much manganese, hens again can't absorb calcium sufficient to make eggs, and this sets them on the internal laying path.

An example: one time I fed dolomitic limestone for calcium, after following a local feed store's advice — every single layer on that diet died of internal laying from soft shelled eggs. I only found out later that dolomitic limestone is very high in manganese. Big (sad) eye opener...

regards
Erica

 

[FisherMOM]

well, I wish I knew what all of that meant Erica.
sounds like great advise, but how much is too much and how do I find out what I am feeding them?

I got my leghorns when they were 3 months old. I feed my chickens layer pellets and any young
that end up in the pen end up eating what everyone else is eating.
It's darn near impossible to keep them all separate for 5 months.

 

[speckledhen]

I consulted Dr. Brown from First State Vet Supply. According to Doc, internal laying is genetic/hormone based. There can be other factors that help it along, sure. Mine get crushed eggshells mixed with oyster shell and I have run through a couple of bags of the limestone the last couple of years, but all mine that died from internal laying were raised with oyster shell, not limestone, for calcium. Perhaps dolomitic limestone is of less benefit than oyster shell, and if it was that simple, then all my hens would be dying of that, not just the common hatchery types. The breeder birds are not malfunctioning that way and they get the same feed, other than on occasion when I'm selling lots of hatching eggs, that the layers do.

From the Diseases of Poultry book, I read that salpingitis is more common in high production birds. The cloaca becomes "loose" and doesn't properly close off when the bird poops. It allows feces to be backed up into the oviduct and start an ecoli infection. If you knew that was happening, you could dose the bird with penicillin, but it would not stop future infections, since it doesn't fix the mechanical problem. Then internal laying starts up and the cycle begins.

 

[Erica]

Unwisely I had a quick read then posted; it's only now I had a better look to see the real gist of the thread. My post wasn't exactly helpful — sorry about that. (PS FisherMOM, anyone feeding layer pellets and not feeding meat and bone meal products should be fine for calcium-phosphorus ratio.)

Those cheesy (sausagey?) internal masses are very disturbing. Just a quick suggestion regarding 'genetic' syndromes: I'd argue it could still be the feed. A high volume layer would be the first to show reproductive problems if the feed contains elements that even slightly harm the system. These effects could go unnoticed in a differently bred bird.

I hope you get to the bottom of it. (But 'genetic' doesn't seem to be the bottom, to me... Or at least it should be 'gene-environment interaction', to be accurate.)

regards
Erica

 

[speckledhen]

If it was the feed, then everyone who feeds any commercial feed is at high risk with their birds. Mine get good quality layer pellets and almost nothing else other than when they free range. Their scratch is 12% protein (Knockout Game Bird Feed with animal protein), a nice mix of 11 grains. Occasionally, they get active culture yogurt and Avia Charge vitamins in their water.

Logically, if it's the feed, then the birds I've hatched from good breeders would also be dying from this, and so far, not one has, not from internal laying. Their genetics are much better than the hatchery stock. Why would a hatchery breed for longevity, right? That cuts down on their business.

 

[luckyclucker]

wow, this is a seriously depressing thread. I'm guessing this, or perhaps egg binding, is what happened to 3 of my birds-- all hatchery. Is there a thread that lists succinct and comprehensive signs/symptoms of internal laying? The first bird was a Great Cochin and about a year old, the second a Gold Laced Wyandotte and about 2.5 years old the third a white leghorn about 2.5 years old. All three birds were quite heavy and just started to look lethargic and suddenly died.

Could somebody help me with the following, even if it is to direct me to the correct thread?

Right now I have a girl in my mudroom who has been there for 6 days. I've had her xrayed-- no egg, but a crop with a wad of particulates (about the size of a quarter). She has been pooping but doesn't seem to eat at all. For the first few days clear/light brown bile would come out of her beak if she were tipped head forward. The vet "flushed" her out with water and she pooped some white poop after that with a bit of oyster shell in it. Now she just sits and dozes, her poop is very runny and brownish yellow, but this could be because she won't eat anything. In the process of handling her I found NFM on her vent and have washed her twice, once with Adams and she no longer has mites (as of this morning she looked clean, with only a tiny bit of scabbing). She is VERY thin. Her comb looks pretty normal except for some white tips on the longer bits. I thought this might be some frostbite as we got to -23 this winter a few times. She is a rescue bird and I've only had her for about 4 months. Don't know her age or where she came from, but I'm guessing the feed store around here. I have NO idea as to whether she has been laying or not. When I got her it was winter and pretty much nobody was laying. I don't force laying with lighting. I feed a mixture of BOS, cracked corn, layer crumble, turkey pellets, oyster shell with lots and lots of table scraps. The vet who xrayed her said he would try cutting her open for the crop issue, but didn't seem very confident that she would survive the anesthesia (h e's not an avian vet but is the best I can find). I think she may have had quite a number of mites on her. Could her condition be due to that? I'm thinking that if she were anemic and then dehydrated maybe she could digest properly and then fell weak and then developed a plugged crop?

Arrg. This is so frustrating when there is no vet available with answers, even though I am willing to pay (and have paid over a $100 on her already).

Sorry so long, any help appreciated.

 

[speckledhen]

The only thing that separates the symptoms of this internal laying thing from other ailments that cause weight loss is probably the way they act when it begins--going on the nest and sitting for long periods without producing an egg, maybe straining, but no egg you can palpate in the oviduct. Then eventually, they quit going to the nest. At the end, they have lost massive amounts of weight even while eating and drinking well. Their keel bones could cut meat, they're so emaciated. She may be emaciated in the chest area, but with a hard or enlarged abdomen. Some don't have enlarged abdomens--the first few I lost did not.

Molting can also cause a large weight loss and cessation of laying, so sometimes, you are really not sure for quite awhile.


Past experience is all I have to draw from when I think another one is going the same way as others before her. We have done necropsies on several hens, finding the same thing every time, those cheesy masses of infection and egg gunk, either in the abdomen or the oviducts or both. Poor hens go through so much to lay that egg several times each week.

 

[ChickenAlgebra]

I think I've found similar things as Speckledhen. Internal layers are genetic/hormonal.

Our LF Cochins - 4 hens - ALL had laying problems. 3 did not survive (full blown internal layers), 1 had to have a hysterectomy (was laying multiple eggs a day). Kept her for the simple fact that we can put ANY babies near her, and she is right away ready to mother them.

We have BR, JG, Orphs, bantam Cochins, ducks, geese, peafowl, guineas... NEVER had another girl have problems laying like this. We've had the random egg binding issue, almost always a double yolk egg, and no girl or breed does that more than the next. This is a once, maybe twice a year issue - if anything, I see it more in our ducks than anyone else.

Honestly, if you can confirm a true laying problem, I think the best option is to cull. It's just a pointless, hard battle. It's VERY hard on the hen, it's a long battle that short of a hysterectomy doesn't have a fix, and with that - what's the use of a hen? Unless she's a VERY devoted mother who will happily raise chicks after surgery, and even then, it's EXPENSIVE.

Alas, very hard to put down the kid's favorite chicken, who really is a sweetheart and put up with a LOT of vet care and poking/proding.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote:
Agreed. If I've learned nothing else from it, it's this. There is no permanent recovery from this. It's a chronic condition without prevention or cure.

 

[ChickenAlgebra]

Quote:
Agreed. If I've learned nothing else from it, it's this. There is no permanent recovery from this. It's a chronic condition without prevention or cure.

Yup. Cyborg, she's a LOVELY girl. My two youngest love her, push her in strollers, dress her up in doll clothes, everything. We'd spent 16 days with her inside trying to break her stupid 2 eggs a day habit. 2 days of 3 eggs daily, ugh. DH took her to KSU who thought we were insane for doing the hyster on a chicken.

Yup. But after spending 2 weeks babying a chicken, my kids in love with her, she always was helping raise chicks without having gone broody on her own, DH wasn't convinced to at least not try it. Let's be honest. The real reason he couldn't just put her down there is because he had a 5 y/o and 2 y/o DD at home going "Daddy, you going to save our chicky?" as he left with her.

Brought her home. 7 weeks of recovery inside, 6 weeks penned outside.

But, she is a VERY good momma, helps takes care of babies, will sit on a nest for a broody so she can take a break, helps keep a watch for predators like the roos. So it's not ENTIRELY a waste.

But it was still nearly $1,000 by the end of the mess with the LF Cochin girls, $700 on Cyborg. To get 3 dead chickens who suffered pain and stress, and 1 who was a VERY sick chicken for a very long time and is now nothing but a foster Momma and a pet.

If you want a chicken for a pet, I guess you can try it. There is NOT a high success rate however. Plus, as docile and sweet as Cyborg is now, for her, the 9 weeks of inside life was driving her nuts, she was NOT happy, she wanted to run around the grass, dust bathe with friends, eat bugs, in general be a chicken.

I don't know. I say what we did is not the right answer. I wouldn't do it again. But if someone else has the time and money and wants to try it, I won't stop them. But I don't recommend it.