Tell me about your internal layers

[rooster-red]

Please tell me about your experience with internal layers, even hens that have died and you suspect they were internal layers.

Please try to include the following:
Breed

Age or suspected age


If they were hatchery or breeder birds if known

I need to collect as much info as possible, so please feel free to participate, and thank you in advance.

 

[cafarmgirl]

I have a Red Sex Link who is showing many of these same signs. We have only 3 hens but it has taken us a while to determine which one was having issues and the there even was an issue. Progression was very slow. I am not encouraged by this thread at all! But am certainly thankful for everyone's desire to share their insight and wisdom.

My girl is about 2 years old and I believe she is a hatchery bird although I do not know for sure. I got her at 4 months old, and almost lost her in the first month. Very expensive vet bills! But she is an awesome bird. Very smart. She was the first to start laying out of the bunch, while in the house under quarantine AND on Earth Day no less. She was about about 6 or 7 months of age.

True to their breed, all are heavy layers.

Anyway, my hens have been on organic feed since I have had them. I have tried several different brands, so I don't think it is food related. (although it pains me to say it, since I would love for GMO's to be to blame) They get plenty of free range and sunshine. She is an excellent huntress of protein. I once saw her catch a MOUSE!

I would welcome any natural remedies, as I just don't know if we will do the antibiotic course again. Anything I can do to help her be more comfortable?

Has anyone determined if this is a contagious disease? It seems like it is so common, maybe there is something missing in the research.

Thanks for all you do!

I haven't read through this entire thread but I will try to answer some of your questions.

There are no rememdies for internal laying, natural or otherwise. Although getting a hen spayed will take care of the problem though it's a tough and risky surgery and by the time most owners know what's going on with their birds things have gotten to complicated to make the bird a good risk for surgery. Also finding an avian vet with enough chicken knowledge who is willing and capable of attempting such a surgery is hard. If a bird developes fluid in the abdomen it can be drained which makes them more comfortable temporarily. Antibiotic's help when infection sets in, but again that is a temporary fix. We've had several birds with this problem over the years and I just watch them. When they start showing signs of being uncomfortable we have them put down. It's always better do it a little sooner then later as these birds can really suffer with this when it gets into it's later stages.

It is not a contagious disease but it is very, very common, especially in hatchery bred birds. These birds are bred for nothing other then to produce eggs, there is no attempt to breed out these problems or breed for a better bird. It's just mass production.

Hope this info is somewhat helpful. Wish I had something more positive to say.

 

[Rte.66_chicks]

I had an EE that became an internal layer. She stopped laying, and her abdomen got bigger and bigger. I finally culled her, and when I opened her up, there was at least two quarts, maybe more, of big water balloon-like structures. There were a few normal yolks, and I could see that the other structures had started as yolks but something had happened. I felt so bad that I had waited so long to end her suffering. She could hardly walk, and I don't know how she could breath-there wasn't any room. Her carcass weighed about 1 1 1/2 lb. She was about three years old by the time I put her down, and had survived two dog attacks. I don't know if the stress of those may have had something to do with the problem.

 

[Terri O]

I had a hen that was a production red from a hatchery (I bought her from someone so I dont know which) I thought she was an internal layer because I had had another from the same batch that I did a necropsy on; but I found that she had ascites. THis is what the hen with the huge belly sounds like to me. I stuck a large gauge needle in mine and drained her out. I got A LOT of fluid. I watched her for a few days inside and returned her to the coop. I cant differentiate her from the rest now!
I would have the family feel and see if their hen seems really squishy (like a water balloon) around the belly and not hard. That is what mine was like. Terri O

 

[Cynlynian]

Quote:
Here is the info I have. Not to say that I have tried it - the scale seemed a bit large - I guess you could easily make smaller quantities, it is just that feed suppliers tend to only sell in bulk. Maybe you could make up and on-sell smaller amounts to a group of folk? The mik powder is a bit boggling - it can be really expensive, even for us here in NZ where we have cows a plenty and export heaps of milk powder. we also had a shortage of oatmeal here for a while - all the farmers have been planting canola for oil in Australia, and then not a very good season here in NZ. I could only buy rolled oats, no oatmeal for several months. (thats to feed me not my chickens!)

Laying Mash

50 kg (1 cwt) wheat meal
50 kg (1 cwt) maize meal (preferably yellow maize)
50 kg (1 cwt) other grain meal (oats, barley or rye)
50 kg (1cwt) fish meal
13.5 kg (30 lb)) dried milk
9 kg (20 lb) ground seashells
2.3 kg (5 lb) salt

Give them free access to this, and a handful each of whole grains to scratch out of their straw or litter.

Fattening Mash for cockerels or capons

Barley meal is the best fattener for any poultry, but can be replaced by boiled potatoes. Skimmed milk is also ideal:

150 kg (3 cwt) barely meal
50 kg (1 cwt) wheat meal
25 kg (1/2 cwt) fish or meat meal
13 kg (30 lb) dried milk plus some time (ground sea shells and salt)


Little chick mash

13 kg (30 lb) meal (preferably a mixture of wheat, maize and oats)
5 kg (12 lb) fish meal or meat meal
5kg (12 lb) alfalfa (Lucerne) meal
0.9 kg (2 lb) ground seashells
0.5 kg (1 lb) cod liver oil
0.5 kg (1 lb) salt
plus a ‘scratch’ of finely cracked cereals

If you give your chickens plenty of milk (whole preferably, but skimmed is nearly as good) you can forget all but a little of the cod liver oil, the alfalfa meal, and half, if not all the fish meal or meat meal.

Reference:
Pg 131 The Concise guide to self sufficiency, John Seymour (1976) published by DK,

Hope this helps

Cynthia

 

[speckledhen]

I second what cafarmgirl told you. If you have an ecoli reproductive infection, penicillin will not touch that, unfortunately. Internal laying is even worse than that, the cheesy internal masses that won't ever be dissolved. Sad situation. Been there, done that numerous times, with the hatchery hens mostly. No prevention, no cure unfortunately. Better genetics is the only way to stop seeing this all the time, I've found. My breeder quality hens and the ones who are a few generations removed from the direct hatchery stock seem to be much less prone to it.

 

[Eggcessive]

Sorry, Tim, that is not what causes internal laying at all. It begins with an ecoli infection and the egg material backs up, mixed with solid infection and nothing can get through. Cheesy masses can fill the abdomen as well as the oviduct. It has nothing at all to do with calcium. I have it on good authority (PHD in Poultry Science) that it is a genetic/hormone based malfunction and calcium will do nothing to alleviate it.

As for ecoli, that is everywhere, like staph. You can't see it and you can't really defend against it. You can have a rat free environment and you'll still have internal layers if they are predisposed to it with their sucky genetics. My breeder stock has almost NONE of it, but my hatchery stock, almost every single one, died from it. Genetics. The solution? I was told to get better stock from a different source. And I did. And that was the solution.

Cynthia, can't some internal laying be sterile--just internal laying without E. coli or other bacteria--from internal damage to the reproductive organs? I ask because I am only learning about these things, and trying to explain them to others seeking help. I was thinking that egg yolk peritonitis involved infection, but internal laying could be sterile, and that antibiotics may not help internal laying.
I really wish that you would write an article on this topic, since you have so much experience, pictures, and information to educate us. I usually refer people to your threads, but one concise article with pictures would be so good to share.

Kim

 

[CrazyHenLady386]

I lost 3 Brown Star hens from Internal Laying since september. My other chickens are not affected at all but I really dont want to ose Piper who is a Brown Star and my absolute best friend in the world. I really dont want to lose her! Its amazing how attached you can become to these chickens. Some nights I cry myself to sleep trying to imagine a word without Piper. I am 14 and the prime caretaker of the chickens we have. The rest of my family honestly doesnt have any empathy for me. They just kind of watch my chickens suffer and watch me suffer as I lose each and every one of them. Anyway I hope I didnt make any of you cry! Have a good day and good luck with all those Internal layers.
Remember: If a chicken's pain is outweighing its quality of life then Its best to let them go. Your Hen or rooster WILL forgive you and wont have hard feelings against you.

 

[luvmychicknkids]

I have had one internal layer. She was a White Leghorn. Hatchery bird. About 6 months old when she got sick. She had been laying for about a month. One day an egg broke internally while she was laying. She seemed to get the shell out but stopped laying after that. She lived for about 3 months longer, never laying another egg. She had good days where she got out and scratched and hunted bugs and days she seemed to prefer to just rest in the door of the coop.

We never felt we should cull her because she seemed to have a lot more of the good days than the bad, even though she seemed weaker and slower than the other chickens. She finally just went to sleep one night and didn't wake up the next morning.

 

[speckledhen]

Silver Laced Wyandotte Passed suddenly 2 yrs and a couple of months old

Silver Laced Wyandotte Passed away after wasting away for weeks. 2 years 6 months old

Rhode Island Red Euthanized after same exact symptoms, wasting away in spite of eating constantly....2 years 8 months old

All the above were hatchery birds, all the same age, all from the same hatchery.

Did Layman's necropsy on the all three. In the first one, found loose yolk in abdomen. In the last two, found exactly the same thing, egg material built up in tubes, all other internal organs in glowing health. Classic internal laying.