Tell me about your internal layers

I've had three birds that I suspect have had some form of internal laying/egg yolk peritonitis. Never formally diagnosed, but suspicious.

Case 1: A Polish hen, full sized, about 3 years old when the problems started. She came from a breeder. She was definitely egg bound at least once, which we resolved by soaking her in a warm bath with epson salts, and lubricating her vent. She went on to lay a few more eggs, but never with as much regularity as before. She began to cyclically (every few weeks) exhibit signs of egg binding, although we never were sure if she was actually egg bound again. Her bottom is often messy, and she'll keep her tail down on occassion, pumping it like she's trying to lay. We continue to give her warm baths every so often to try to loosen things up when it gets particularly bad. She no longer lays eggs regularly, but she surprised us a few weeks ago by laying an egg. She acts healthy, just a little cooky. And she has gone on to live an additional year and a half since the initial egg binding. I'm no longer sure if the occasional "egg binding" symptoms she exhibits are egg binding, because no egg ever emerges. I suspect she might have some mild peritonitis? I have no idea if that is even possible.

Case 2: A Black Orpington, about 3 years old when the problems started. She came from a hatchery, I believe. She survived a raccoon attack at about 2 years old. At the time she belonged to a friend who is skilled in avian wildlife rehabilitation and nursed her back to health. Shortly after that, a few months later, she came into our possession, and developed a distended abdomen, and looked to be near death. No longer eating or drinking. Refusing to move. I thought for sure she was a goner. But my friend came over, and very skillfully drained about a cup of fluid from her abdomen with a sterilized syringe and needle. We gave her vitamins and electrolytes, and she recovered. The same thing happened again a few months later, we followed the same treatment. She recovered again, and has had no problems since. Occasionally her abdomen seems to start swelling, but never as much as before, and she always returns to normal. She is now very healthy, vibrant wattles, well preened feathers, she eats and drinks regularly, lays eggs, and went broody for a spell. I wouldn't have been confident treating her on my own, but it was miraculous to watch her recover. She has been healthy for over a year now without problems. Not sure if this was internal laying, complications from the raccoon attack or what. But I was beyond impressed by her recovery.

Case 3: An Americauna, about 4 years old, from a breeder. She has recently started exhibiting symptoms of peritonitis, which is what brought me here. She laid what I'll call a shell-less egg, but was really just a mass of egg whites with a little yolk mixed in. After laying this, she was sitting up on a roost, alone, with ruffled feathers, wings drooped, tail down. I brought her in, gave her a bath in epsom salts, cleaned up her bottom, rubbed some antibiotic ointment on her vent. No sign of any shell, but some definite mucusy/egg whitey mess was on her bottom. I kept her inside, and tried to get her to eat, but she is still refusing most food. She ate a few bites of plum, some sour cream, and a sip of water with vitamins in it. I have her back outside because she hated being inside. She still has her tail down, and she is pooping what looks like egg whites. Refusing most food. I'm not sure she will make it. I might try to give her another epsom salt bath later today. If anybody has any tips, I'd appreciate them. Not sure if this is peritonitis, but pretty suspect that it might be, and that there isn't much to do.
 
I have a production red that seems to be internally laying. She is approx. 24 weeks old, and laid a few normal eggs, two TRIPLE yolked eggs, and a lot of rubber eggs. For the past two weeks I've had one normal egg, two rubber eggs within a half hour of each other and now a lot of watery poop with what looks like yolk mixed in. This past Friday she refused to eat and had green poop, so I started giving her amoxicillin as a last ditch effort. She's actually perked up quite a bit and is eating and running around and has solid poop, but I saw egg yolk in it this morning again so I don't think problem is solved. Not sure what most humane thing to do is.
 
I have a Red Sex Link who is showing many of these same signs. We have only 3 hens but it has taken us a while to determine which one was having issues and the there even was an issue. Progression was very slow. I am not encouraged by this thread at all! But am certainly thankful for everyone's desire to share their insight and wisdom.

My girl is about 2 years old and I believe she is a hatchery bird although I do not know for sure. I got her at 4 months old, and almost lost her in the first month. Very expensive vet bills! But she is an awesome bird. Very smart. She was the first to start laying out of the bunch, while in the house under quarantine AND on Earth Day no less. She was about about 6 or 7 months of age.

True to their breed, all are heavy layers.

Anyway, my hens have been on organic feed since I have had them. I have tried several different brands, so I don't think it is food related. (although it pains me to say it, since I would love for GMO's to be to blame) They get plenty of free range and sunshine. She is an excellent huntress of protein. I once saw her catch a MOUSE!

I would welcome any natural remedies, as I just don't know if we will do the antibiotic course again. Anything I can do to help her be more comfortable?

Has anyone determined if this is a contagious disease? It seems like it is so common, maybe there is something missing in the research.

Thanks for all you do!
 
I have a Red Sex Link who is showing many of these same signs. We have only 3 hens but it has taken us a while to determine which one was having issues and the there even was an issue. Progression was very slow. I am not encouraged by this thread at all! But am certainly thankful for everyone's desire to share their insight and wisdom.

My girl is about 2 years old and I believe she is a hatchery bird although I do not know for sure. I got her at 4 months old, and almost lost her in the first month. Very expensive vet bills! But she is an awesome bird. Very smart. She was the first to start laying out of the bunch, while in the house under quarantine AND on Earth Day no less. She was about about 6 or 7 months of age.

True to their breed, all are heavy layers.

Anyway, my hens have been on organic feed since I have had them. I have tried several different brands, so I don't think it is food related. (although it pains me to say it, since I would love for GMO's to be to blame) They get plenty of free range and sunshine. She is an excellent huntress of protein. I once saw her catch a MOUSE!

I would welcome any natural remedies, as I just don't know if we will do the antibiotic course again. Anything I can do to help her be more comfortable?

Has anyone determined if this is a contagious disease? It seems like it is so common, maybe there is something missing in the research.

Thanks for all you do!
I haven't read through this entire thread but I will try to answer some of your questions.

There are no rememdies for internal laying, natural or otherwise. Although getting a hen spayed will take care of the problem though it's a tough and risky surgery and by the time most owners know what's going on with their birds things have gotten to complicated to make the bird a good risk for surgery. Also finding an avian vet with enough chicken knowledge who is willing and capable of attempting such a surgery is hard. If a bird developes fluid in the abdomen it can be drained which makes them more comfortable temporarily. Antibiotic's help when infection sets in, but again that is a temporary fix. We've had several birds with this problem over the years and I just watch them. When they start showing signs of being uncomfortable we have them put down. It's always better do it a little sooner then later as these birds can really suffer with this when it gets into it's later stages.

It is not a contagious disease but it is very, very common, especially in hatchery bred birds. These birds are bred for nothing other then to produce eggs, there is no attempt to breed out these problems or breed for a better bird. It's just mass production.

Hope this info is somewhat helpful. Wish I had something more positive to say.
 
I second what cafarmgirl told you. If you have an ecoli reproductive infection, penicillin will not touch that, unfortunately. Internal laying is even worse than that, the cheesy internal masses that won't ever be dissolved. Sad situation. Been there, done that numerous times, with the hatchery hens mostly. No prevention, no cure unfortunately. Better genetics is the only way to stop seeing this all the time, I've found. My breeder quality hens and the ones who are a few generations removed from the direct hatchery stock seem to be much less prone to it.
 
What they said... And I'll add that some peafowl people, myself included, have been quoted $1500 for the surgery. If I suspect mine has an E. coli infection of the repro tract and is not an internal layer,I will treat with Baytril. Once they have yolks floating around their abdominal cavity the only cure is surgery, no amount of antibiotics will cure that.

-Kathy
 
What they said... And I'll add that some peafowl people, myself included, have been quoted $1500 for the surgery. If I suspect mine has an E. coli infection of the repro tract and is not an internal layer,I will treat with Baytril. Once they have yolks floating around their abdominal cavity the only cure is surgery, no amount of antibiotics will cure that.

-Kathy

I second what Kathy said. Hyserectomies are very expensive for fowl, not what most folks are willing or even can think about paying. The problem is you can't always tell if you're dealing with internal laying or egg yolk peritonitis, they seem to go hand in hand as far as the outward symptoms. So, you may be treating for EYP and you're actually dealing with internal laying (coelomitis), which is caused by ecoli.

Diagnosing can be problematic. I had a hen who started laying about 32 weeks of age, laid only a few weeks, then quit. She'd bloat up, then it would dissipate. She never laid another egg, but the bloating cycle continued for over 2 years. Since I'd never had a hen with internal laying last that long (longest was about 8 months), I was at a loss as to what to do. She never lost her appetite, but had zero meat on her keel, though she was a huge-framed breeder Orpington hen. In September, when her body didn't remove the fluid on its own, I drained 660 cc of fluid from her in an effort to help her just walk. She died recently and I found, to my shock, two HUGE baseball sized (each) tumors where her left liver lobe should have been and a septic gallbladder. Turns out, according to the vet I consult, they were actually reproductive tumors in her liver! I never knew that could happen, but he said that bacteria can circulate throughout the body and settle anywhere, then form tumors. Bless her heart, she was so strong, but her heart finally gave out from the strain. Penicillin would have done no good in this case.

I told this story because from the outside, it appeared like any other EYP or internal laying issue, but there were absolutely NO cheesy masses in her body, no eggs "up the pipe". Just when you think you've seen it all....
 
I've been able to feel some of the cheesy yolk masses and cancers in a few of mine while doing a cloacal exam. Not suggesting anyone try it, just that sometimes they can be felt.

-Kathy
 
Just my two cents worth. I think this internal egg laying is due to not being able to process calcium or not enough. Soft shells in eggs can be a problem I think. Point being when you crack your eggs if the shell is thinner than would be it might be time to add some oyster shell to the feed.

Too, I've noticed when I feed bread, in some cases the shells get shaped weird. When I first got chickens I used buy bags of "bird bread" fromt the bakery. Not anymore. They only get it on occasion.

As for the E. Coli? Iv'e read that rodents are carriers. I don't have any cats but use traps to keep things in check. Lately I've been dealing with Squirrels.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Casportpony - just noticed your four wormer, etc. etc. things. Thanks for that I'll be taking a look.
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I am leaning towards genetics because my first line of silkie hens all died from the disorder. None of my new lines have suffered from it and the oldest hens are around 7 yrs. old now.
 

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