Tell me about your internal layers

[speckledhen]

Just my two cents worth. I think this internal egg laying is due to not being able to process calcium or not enough. Soft shells in eggs can be a problem I think. Point being when you crack your eggs if the shell is thinner than would be it might be time to add some oyster shell to the feed.

Too, I've noticed when I feed bread, in some cases the shells get shaped weird. When I first got chickens I used buy bags of "bird bread" fromt the bakery. Not anymore. They only get it on occasion.

As for the E. Coli? Iv'e read that rodents are carriers. I don't have any cats but use traps to keep things in check. Lately I've been dealing with Squirrels.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Casportpony - just noticed your four wormer, etc. etc. things. Thanks for that I'll be taking a look.

Sorry, Tim, that is not what causes internal laying at all. It begins with an ecoli infection and the egg material backs up, mixed with solid infection and nothing can get through. Cheesy masses can fill the abdomen as well as the oviduct. It has nothing at all to do with calcium. I have it on good authority (PHD in Poultry Science) that it is a genetic/hormone based malfunction and calcium will do nothing to alleviate it.

As for ecoli, that is everywhere, like staph. You can't see it and you can't really defend against it. You can have a rat free environment and you'll still have internal layers if they are predisposed to it with their sucky genetics. My breeder stock has almost NONE of it, but my hatchery stock, almost every single one, died from it. Genetics. The solution? I was told to get better stock from a different source. And I did. And that was the solution.

 

[Eggcessive]

Sorry, Tim, that is not what causes internal laying at all. It begins with an ecoli infection and the egg material backs up, mixed with solid infection and nothing can get through. Cheesy masses can fill the abdomen as well as the oviduct. It has nothing at all to do with calcium. I have it on good authority (PHD in Poultry Science) that it is a genetic/hormone based malfunction and calcium will do nothing to alleviate it.

As for ecoli, that is everywhere, like staph. You can't see it and you can't really defend against it. You can have a rat free environment and you'll still have internal layers if they are predisposed to it with their sucky genetics. My breeder stock has almost NONE of it, but my hatchery stock, almost every single one, died from it. Genetics. The solution? I was told to get better stock from a different source. And I did. And that was the solution.

Cynthia, can't some internal laying be sterile--just internal laying without E. coli or other bacteria--from internal damage to the reproductive organs? I ask because I am only learning about these things, and trying to explain them to others seeking help. I was thinking that egg yolk peritonitis involved infection, but internal laying could be sterile, and that antibiotics may not help internal laying.
I really wish that you would write an article on this topic, since you have so much experience, pictures, and information to educate us. I usually refer people to your threads, but one concise article with pictures would be so good to share.

Kim

 

[speckledhen]

Cynthia, can't some internal laying be sterile--just internal laying without E. coli or other bacteria--from internal damage to the reproductive organs? I ask because I am only learning about these things, and trying to explain them to others seeking help. I was thinking that egg yolk peritonitis involved infection, but internal laying could be sterile, and that antibiotics may not help internal laying.
I really wish that you would write an article on this topic, since you have so much experience, pictures, and information to educate us. I usually refer people to your threads, but one concise article with pictures would be so good to share.

Kim

You are correct, that not all of this stuff is caused by ecoli. I had a hen with an egg just leave the oviduct and set up housekeeping in the abdomen, I believe because it was so humongous and contained a second egg. She couldn't pass it so it was moved from where it shiould have been-that was not ecoli, of course, but in the end, it was a death sentence.

There are some terms that are sort of used interchangeably, Kim. When the yolks drop into the abdomen, that is sometimes termed "false layer". I may use the wrong term from time to time, but the thing is they are all so similar and related and it almost doesn't matter which is which, results can be the same, death.

Check out the definitions from the Merck manual for EYP, internal laying and false laying and you can see how similar they are. Whichever you're talking about, egg yolks go somewhere they shouldn't or they are blocked off by infection and form masses with the solidified infection.

Quote: Their definition of internal layer:



Quote: And what they say about false laying:

Quote:

 

[rancher hicks]

How does one know if it is "internal laying".

I figured that was what was wrong with Buckwheat, but her swelling went down and she was laying again. I even have a chick or two of hers.

Then she swelled up again. Not as bad as the first time. She was laying even then, but thin shelled eggs. She's still seems to be doing okay but swollen.

I've treated her with Duramycin and Sulmet.

 

[speckledhen]

How does one know if it is "internal laying".

I figured that was what was wrong with Buckwheat, but her swelling went down and she was laying again. I even have a chick or two of hers.

Then she swelled up again. Not as bad as the first time. She was laying even then, but thin shelled eggs. She's still seems to be doing okay but swollen.

I've treated her with Duramycin and Sulmet.

You don't know, Tim, you only suspect. Remember, I've opened up about 15 hens and found identical things inside after almost identical symptoms prior to their deaths. Birds with infections who kick those out may start back laying briefly, but they generally relapse; ones whose oviducts are plugged will never produce eggs again.

 

[hammytammy]

well, i necropsied a chicken that i had to cull because of what i originally thought was chronic wet pox complications and/ or crd.
and, i guess it could have started there, but im convinced, now, that she had infectious bronchitis.
she had internal eggs and also smaller and a bit harder tumorlike masses. i researched these "findings" well.
imho, it was chronic infectious bronchitis that led to her damaged oviduct, therefore being an internal layer.

i think that she was an older pullet, close to a yr old.

she was a blue ameraucana.
since the flock was given to me with no history, i think hatchery stock.
BUT several birds-her included- had metal leg bands with a bunch of numbers imprinted on them.

she was sick when i got them, and i suspect that they all had this.
there are no indications that the rest of the 25 chickens had this.
i am assuming they did , although there are
no wrinkly egg shells any where, or watery whites.....
but many are not laying although they look healthy.
im going to give them thorough exams.

tammy

 

[song of joy]

I've lost 3 hatchery birds (Healthy Chicks and More) to confirmed or suspected cases of internal laying. Onset in all birds began between 22 and 26 months of age.

RIR: culled at 24 months after exhibiting classic signs of internal laying for at least 2 months; necropsy confirmed masses of solidified egg yolks in abdomen

Black australorp: culled at 30 months, after not laying for several months during spring/summer; suspected to be an internal layer

Golden-laced wyandotte: culled at 30 months, after not laying for several months during spring/summer; suspect to be an internal layer

I haven't ready through this whole thread to see if a cause has been identified yet, but I am very concerned about GM feed.

 

[All Ball]

Breed: SLW

Age or suspected age of EYP onset: Approaching 2 years

If they were hatchery or breeder birds if known: Got her from a local breeder, a young woman now out of business - my guess is she probably wasn't a great breeder and got some hatchery stock - this wasn't 1 of her favored breeds.

Other info: Got her as a pullet, about 2-3 months old; I believe breeder had them on layer pellets pre-laying. Backyard free-ranger, raised conventionally but on organic chick crumbles, scratch, layer pellets since I got them, plus org. yoghurt, sunflower seeds, scraps, garlic. Backyard free-ranging.

EYP history: Stopped laying; about 1 week after, noticed swollen and soft butt. Vet extracted yolky fluid from abdomen. 2 weeks of antibiotics - she is back close to normal energetic, talkative, food interest, less swollen but not completely back to normal size. Still walks like a duck and is leaking egg from vent.

Very frustrating as I love the looks of this breed, she is quiet, laid-back, friendly, likes to talk. Next time I may try Foley's or other good breeder.

 

[Luvmy9hens]

Breed: Old English Game Bantam (self-blue)

Age at onset: 15 months and again at 33 months

Breeder stock

Fertile eggs shipped from Georgia (she's a Georgia peach!) Raised by a surrogate and hand raised (co partners with the lovely Mama who is now 7 years old!) Raised on chick mash and treats, grower pellets and treats, layer pellets and treats. Treats can be wild long grain rice, egg yolk, yogurt, fresh corn, salad greens, tomatoes, etc.

Hen was standing tail down and looking poorly. Noticed on both occasions that she laid a shell-less egg. On both occasions, rubbery membrane was laid within a week of starting the antibiotics.
Been to the vet on both occasions - total cost over 800.00

Treatment: 10 days on antibiotics / calcium supplement.

Current status: Lays once a week. Shows signs of getting ready to lay a few days beforehand. I give her a dose of Cal-Nate - all is well. Switched to organic feed. I also installed a full spectrum light in the coop for daytime use. Lack of vitamin D especially in the northern hemisphere could impact calcium absorption. The full spectrum light alleviates that concern.

 

[angie3]

I just put down my Anastasia, a Golden Buff (sex link). She was about six months old and came from a breeder. We got her and her two sisters at the same time. Her sisters started laying about three months ago. She would go into the nesting boxes too, but she never laid one egg. On Friday, I noticed her comb and wattle were faded and super droopy. Her bottom was dirty, she wasn't eating or drinking much and stayed in one area all day all fluffed up. We thought she was just a late bloomer and maybe her first egg had gotten bound. We did multiple warm baths, lubricated her vent, and kept her with us on Sunday. On Monday I took her to the vet. He said he felt dozens of eggs inside of her. And due to the fact that she never laid, even if he could manipulate any of them out, it would continue happening. She was the wild one of the bunch and evidently had been fighting up until the end. I'm glad that on her last day with us she was pampered and given extra love. We buried her near the run to be close to her sisters.