Théo and the chickens des Sauches

[BDutch]

I’ve been reading many things in the last page I wanted to react upon. But I try to stay compact.

Thanks ManueB for the compliment of me trying to make my kids ready for a joyful (and responsible) life. My son isn’t a real climbing teacher (yet). Just got his diploma last spring. Great photo of your climbing action.

Sorry to hear about your friend who you miss dearly.

And I feel sorry for your struggle with your chickens. But a pity you didn’t film it () I’ve been wondering if I could give any advice to help but I really can’t say anything more than has been written already. Except maybe you could try one harmless supplement for worms/parasites. There is no scientific proof that is works (no big pharma) but the organic animal shop in the NL Bio-Ron claims its helps for many things. I use it and never had any visible worms, scaly leg mites or feather lice. Only the red mite did escape the prevention regime this spring.

It doesn’t hurt to give DE in the feed against parasites. The theory behind it is that when the poop dries the larvae get killed. It doesn’t help quickly like medicines but giving it for a month should reduce the parasites. And it helps for stronger intestines

Spoiler: DE info

[/]]
Operation in food

In addition to supplying the element silicon, it also acts as an anti-caking agent, which ensures that the food particles remain separate from each other.
This allows an optimal microbial / enzymatic nutrient intake to take place.
Prevents eating or licking sand.
It can bind toxic substances that can leave the body in this way, similar to clay, but much less intense in terms of effect, so that it can be given for a longer period of time without restriction
Has a stomach strengthening effect and protects the stomach / intestinal wall.
Prevents the hatching of fly larvae in the manure.

In daily ration

• Horses 10 to 30 grams per day / 1 to 3 tablespoons, 1 full tablespoon is about 10 grams
• Dogs under 20 kg 1 to 2 teaspoons
• Dogs over 20 kg 1 tablespoon
• Dogs over 40 kg 2 tablespoons
• Cats 1 tsp
• Kittens 1/2 tsp
• Chickens 5% of the ration weight
• Cattle 2% of the dry ration weight
• Calves 4 grams in the morning
• Pigs 2% of the ration weight
• Sheep 1% of the concentrate weight
• Goats 1% of the concentrated feed weight

Diatomaceous earth can be added to the diet indefinitely if desired.

The quantities that we indicate are, of course, guidelines from which you can safely deviate.

This product does not need to be dosed to the gram, after all it is a 100% natural earth product.
In specific cases, the dosage can be doubled or even tripled for a period of time if this is advised in the context of a therapy / medical treatment.

Precautions for use

The product itself is absolutely harmless when taken orally and on the skin.
But due to the strong drying effect, it can cause irritation on mucous membranes and skin.
Inhalation of this product should always be prevented by using a mask and goggles to protect the eyes.

When stored dry, the diatomaceous earth can be stored indefinitely.

The combination of mites and bumblefoot is really a problem, because one of the things I would have wanted to do is to pad the roosts and the ramp with gym mats, but i’m afraid the mites will just love it.

In the thread about my broody / chick project I told about getting red mite in the coop. @Sequel reacted with a video of someone (French) who uses strips made from corrugated cardboard packaging and wind its around the roosts to catch mites.
Look for the video on page 11:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/natural-breeding-project-no5-janice-pearl-broodies-and-11-hatching-eggs--.1574045/page-11

 

[Shadrach]

I agree that universities should be the place for very theoretical work, whether in arts, humanities, or science.

----------- all math talk below -------------

I surely give that vibe. The truth is I actually like what I do and am happy at its prospect of application in machine learning and data analysis. It can do very good things. I actually have an ongoing project with a biologist on regenerative agriculture. However, much I do is theory and we just like to talk pretty.
Bad corporation/government is gonna do bad one way or another.



Upon looking at his publication, I think what he does is actually algebraic geometry (not the other way around, sorry Manue). It is pure but popular mathematics (in academia), the crown jewel of mathematics, meaning a big portion of publications in the most top math journals publish in this field, and only the most talented ones dare to be in this field. Be proud that your father is one of them. It is main stream mathematics (again research-wise) in a sense. For people who or bored (or not), read about one of the gods of mathematics: Grothendieck.
I am simply not good enough for algebraic geometry.

No, you did not sound like that at all. These beautiful theories should exist and thrive, but I still hold the view that maybe only in the top 100 universities in the world. This is because I have seen too many heart-breaking stories of my mathematical friends not able to find a job after many many years of temporary positions. One of them even killed himself (but he also had other problems).
It sounds weird but I do not encourage students to go into mathematics (I also don't discourage). If there are ones asking my opinion, I will tell them that it can be a hard and lonely road ahead of you, so be prepared, unless you are a genius (and I know they are not by the time of conversation...)

I think both. His work is first class.

And yes I am fortunate that I don't need to apply for funding, but in the US there is a bad trend that you need to apply and secure funding (usually from the public such as national science foundation) even as a mathematician only to show that your research is important, whether pure or applied. The fund will be small and mostly support your summer salary and conference travel.

I did mathematics at university; applied mostly. Pure maths wasn't something I was good enough at or interested enough in to make any sense of persuing it.
I did use the maths I learnt as a research and design engineer for a few years. Badly paid and badly regarded in the UK at that time and many I knew in similar fields went to Europe for further studies or careers.
Fortunately now I've stepped up in the academic world to Bucket Boy I don't need much of what I learnt at uni even if I could recal much of it.

 

[Shadrach]

There are some St John Wort berries there too, so you may have got them rather than a comb. Here's a cheat to help locate her
View attachment 3602018

Can you post some clear pictures of St John's Wort, in flower if you have any, here for me please.

 

[Shadrach]

Sorry, it's my mistake. I didn't understand, and thought you meant the Peruvian raspberries was st John's wort! No, I can't see it. When it grows mine has very small leaf and yellow flowers and looks quite Mediterranean, in the sense that it's not lush.

Could you take some pictures as well please.

 

[Shadrach]

That makes sense to me.
So I think @ManueB can focus on Bumblefoot unless any chicken is poorly (I know some are) in which case coccidia and worms take priority at least for that individual.
Does that sound right?

Coccidiosis needs treating no matter the severity. Most free range/ranging chickens carry some worms. A twice yearly deworming is a good idea. Better still is sending samples to a lab for a worm count.
Bumblefoot if that's what is the problem is difficult to deal with without a vet.

 

[RoyalChick]

Coccidiosis needs treating no matter the severity. Most free range/ranging chickens carry some worms. A twice yearly deworming is a good idea. Better still is sending samples to a lab for a worm count.

I am not quite sure from this if we are saying the same thing or not. Coccidiosis needs treating regardless of severity - I think I was saying the same thing because Coccidiosis is the condition when the Coccidia take over, and the chicken's systems are not coping to keep the parasite load under control. So by definition Coccidiosis is serious. But I believe perfectly healthy chickens will have some Coccidia on board and don't need treating.
It is not hard to tell using a fecal float test to look for oocytes - I used to know how and it can be done at home relatively easily (though I confess I don't, I take a sample to the local vet).

Same for roundworms - not hard to do a fecal float test and a healthy chicken will have some on board so it is down to the oocyte count.

So I am not sure why it would be a good idea to de-worm twice a year if the chicken is well and the oocycte count is not extreme. Isn't that the practice that has led to resistance in some parts of the world to common anthelmintics?

 

[BDutch]

I am not quite sure from this if we are saying the same thing or not. Coccidiosis needs treating regardless of severity - I think I was saying the same thing because Coccidiosis is the condition when the Coccidia take over, and the chicken's systems are not coping to keep the parasite load under control. So by definition Coccidiosis is serious. But I believe perfectly healthy chickens will have some Coccidia on board and don't need treating.
It is not hard to tell using a fecal float test to look for oocytes - I used to know how and it can be done at home relatively easily (though I confess I don't, I take a sample to the local vet).

Same for roundworms - not hard to do a fecal float test and a healthy chicken will have some on board so it is down to the oocyte count.

So I am not sure why it would be a good idea to de-worm twice a year if the chicken is well and the oocycte count is not extreme. Isn't that the practice that has led to resistance in some parts of the world to common anthelmintics?

There is a research report (Louis Bolk Institute with Wageningen University) on worms , treating or not in populations of organic chickens (outside free ranging). The outcome was that its only usefull to treat for worms if you have a serious infestation. Treating with dewormers has a negative impact on the health of chickens and it keeps coming back anyway. Healthy chickens can coop with a mild infestation. Only if the infestation is seriously bad, treating is better for their health. Im not sure if they included tapeworm.
Link to the Dutch report: https://edepot.wur.nl/115784
Maybe you can translate it (Summary) with chatGtp or google.

 

[Perris]

Can you post some clear pictures of St John's Wort, in flower if you have any, here for me please.

They're not in flower here now, but this site has a good photo and description
https://www.norfolkherbs.co.uk/product/st-johns-wort-hypericum-perforatum/
there are lots of types of hypericum too; the RHS lists 73 (!), most of them very similar to one another.

 

[ManueB]

View attachment 3606206


it was Laserbeak

And what a cutie she was !
I might steal your idea if the leghorns keep struggling in the bath.

I’ve been reading many things in the last page I wanted to react upon. But I try to stay compact.

Thanks ManueB for the compliment of me trying to make my kids ready for a joyful (and responsible) life. My son isn’t a real climbing teacher (yet). Just got his diploma last spring. Great photo of your climbing action.

Sorry to hear about your friend who you miss dearly.

And I feel sorry for your struggle with your chickens. But a pity you didn’t film it () I’ve been wondering if I could give any advice to help but I really can’t say anything more than has been written already. Except maybe you could try one harmless supplement for worms/parasites. There is no scientific proof that is works (no big pharma) but the organic animal shop in the NL Bio-Ron claims its helps for many things. I use it and never had any visible worms, scaly leg mites or feather lice. Only the red mite did escape the prevention regime this spring.

It doesn’t hurt to give DE in the feed against parasites. The theory behind it is that when the poop dries the larvae get killed. It doesn’t help quickly like medicines but giving it for a month should reduce the parasites. And it helps for stronger intestines

Spoiler: DE info

[/]]
Operation in food

In addition to supplying the element silicon, it also acts as an anti-caking agent, which ensures that the food particles remain separate from each other.
This allows an optimal microbial / enzymatic nutrient intake to take place.
Prevents eating or licking sand.
It can bind toxic substances that can leave the body in this way, similar to clay, but much less intense in terms of effect, so that it can be given for a longer period of time without restriction
Has a stomach strengthening effect and protects the stomach / intestinal wall.
Prevents the hatching of fly larvae in the manure.

In daily ration

• Horses 10 to 30 grams per day / 1 to 3 tablespoons, 1 full tablespoon is about 10 grams
• Dogs under 20 kg 1 to 2 teaspoons
• Dogs over 20 kg 1 tablespoon
• Dogs over 40 kg 2 tablespoons
• Cats 1 tsp
• Kittens 1/2 tsp
• Chickens 5% of the ration weight
• Cattle 2% of the dry ration weight
• Calves 4 grams in the morning
• Pigs 2% of the ration weight
• Sheep 1% of the concentrate weight
• Goats 1% of the concentrated feed weight

Diatomaceous earth can be added to the diet indefinitely if desired.

The quantities that we indicate are, of course, guidelines from which you can safely deviate.

This product does not need to be dosed to the gram, after all it is a 100% natural earth product.
In specific cases, the dosage can be doubled or even tripled for a period of time if this is advised in the context of a therapy / medical treatment.

Precautions for use

The product itself is absolutely harmless when taken orally and on the skin.
But due to the strong drying effect, it can cause irritation on mucous membranes and skin.
Inhalation of this product should always be prevented by using a mask and goggles to protect the eyes.

When stored dry, the diatomaceous earth can be stored indefinitely.

In the thread about my broody / chick project I told about getting red mite in the coop. @Sequel reacted with a video of someone (French) who uses strips made from corrugated cardboard packaging and wind its around the roosts to catch mites.
Look for the video on page 11:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/natural-breeding-project-no5-janice-pearl-broodies-and-11-hatching-eggs--.1574045/page-11

While I haven't used DE internally, I used it a lot on my chickens and in my coop before I came upon BYC. It's the main product used here against parasites like in the Netherlands I guess. I still use it once in a while in the coop, but a lot less. I don't feel comfortable using it internally in the feed though.
I have been a user of the mite traps since I have a coop, but they are mostly inefficient in my coop, probably because I have too many points of access to the roosts, and I think the mites live on the floor in the hay. I almost never see mites in the traps, even when I’m seeing some on the feed barrel.
I’ve said before that my coop due to it's nature will never be parasite free so I concentrate on trying to keep the mites off the roosts. I use in turn a pyrethrin spray, a surfactant spray, juniper tar, and now my partner burns the roosts with the gas torch. I also use a lot of wood ashes now, in the litter and on the ramp. But honestly the main thing that impacts the mites population is the heat. It gets out of control when the nights stay around 20/ 68 degrees.

Regarding the deworming, I probably didn't make myself clear that I see the six months as a minimum safe duration, meaning that I don't plan to deworm the whole flock more than that. I don't agree with routine deworming of the flock when you know you have worms in your environment at a fixed date. I also think deworming should only be done if you see signs of overload or health issues. We did a global deworming in mid may even though there was no sign of worms because the breeder who sold us the chickens told us they needed deworming. Then I saw a few tapeworm segments just two weeks after. So I'm not repeating this mistake. What I fear is that the day I have a sick chicken that really needs a deworming the worms will have become resistant because I have been feeding them Flubendazole two or three times a year for years. I have the same problem with the cats. My question is what the best strategy would be in a worm loaded environment so as not to develop resistance and without endangering the chicken's health. Most people say you need to deworm the whole flock, but if I do that everytime I have a worm problem I don't think Flubendazole will keep on working.(I have also found a few french writings on that since it's a real question for the egg industry now more layer hens are outside. There is a real financial issue, so my guess is there will be some research to produce another egg safe dewormer, but maybe not in years.)
I have the same problem with my cats, by the way. I deworm them and a month after they are pooping worms again.

 

[Perris]

Coccidiosis needs treating no matter the severity.

This is an important topic and it's come up repeatedly on BYC, so warrants a long post I think. The italicisation indicates why I don't treat.

This from Roberts (BVSc, MRCVS) Diseases of Free-range poultry 3rd ed 2009:54f:

"Coccidia: the birds will get an immunity to coccidia, but the very young and the debilitated are at risk and immunity will wane if the challenge disappears. There are 7 types in hens...not all are pathogenic. In hens they are most important economically and are usually controlled by low levels of coccidiostats (coccidia inhibitors, not killers) in the feed so that the birds are constantly exposed to a small challenge. It takes only 7 days for the oocysts (coccidia eggs) to be ingested by the hen, multiply to millions in the wall of the intestine and be excreted to infect the next birds. The oocysts can survive years if kept damp, not exposed to frost or over 56 C, and most disinfectants are not effective. It may be assumed that any birds reared on litter will be infected. Any batch of youngsters especially on damp litter which stop eating, look hunched and maybe have blood and/or mucus in their loose faeces should be treated with Baycox in the water. Unfortunately this is very expensive for the small flock as the container is large. Amprolium is no longer licensed for poultry but is still for pheasants. Amprol is available as a product licensed for pigeons: Coxoid. There is a vaccination, Paracox, give by mouth at a day old, it is packaged for small flocks, available at The Poultry Club. Feed without coccidiostat must be fed after the vaccine has been given. Some breeds may be genetically resistant to coccidia such as the Fayoumi."

This from MSD
https://www.msdvetmanual.com/digestive-system/coccidiosis/overview-of-coccidiosis-in-animals
"Clinical signs of infection usually only occur in the young... During their lives most animals become infected but show no illness, and the disease is self-limiting. However, when clinical signs occur, they range from diarrhea and decreased growth in mild cases to dysentery, dehydration, and tenesmus in severe cases, usually occurring with widespread hind gut involvement. Mortality rate is generally low. Chronic infections can occur, leading to pasty feces, staring coats, poor growth, and variable sizes within an age group. In production animals, infection can have serious economic consequences... Control depends on decreasing environmental contamination and the stresses to which susceptible animals are subjected... Coccidiosis occurs universally, and most coccidial species are ubiquitous... Illness occurs more often indoors because of lower exposure rates outdoors with lighter exposure levels, allowing the host to be exposed to small numbers of oocysts over an extended period, thereby allowing natural immunity to develop without illness... Coccidia are opportunistic pathogens. In general, for most farm animals, the infection rate is very high, but typically without any clinical disease. Clinical coccidiosis normally develops because of high oocyst exposure or various stressors on the hosts such as poor nutrition, nutritional deficiencies, overcrowding, poor sanitation, or intercurrent disease. Problems can also be related to stresses such as weaning, grouping, shipping, sudden feed changes, or weather changes, especially when severe. Usually, when clinical signs develop, they only develop in a few animals (5%–10%), although serial fecal sampling over a period shows most or almost all the others shedding oocysts... Chronic infection occurs in some animals, causing economic loss due to decreased feed intake, feed conversion efficiency, and weight gain. Some of these animals have poor-quality coats and are unthrifty. Infection can lead to nutritional deficiencies and digestive problems. In some cases, it can result in exacerbation of any intercurrent infections, causing animals to have more severe clinical signs and lengthening their duration or recovery period, either due to immunosuppression or for other reasons... There are wide variations between different countries in the licensing procedures and authorized or approved use of medications used for coccidial treatment and prevention. These medicines should always be used under veterinary supervision. Many of the medicines used in treatment of coccidiosis are only licensed in some countries or not at all. None are licensed for usage in all the species that can be infected... the efficacy of treatment for clinical coccidiosis has not been well demonstrated for most drugs, although it is widely accepted that treatment is effective against reinfection and should therefore facilitate recovery. Most coccidiostats have a depressant effect on the early, first-stage schizonts and are therefore more appropriately used for control rather than treatment."

Coccidiostats are sometimes classified as food additives, not medicines, because they are a sort of fake thiamine, which supposedly starves the bugs of that essential vitamin, but surely fits the same locks in the chicken's gut and therefore also starves the chicken of it too - which is why it's recommended to give vit b1 immediately after treatment. I do not want to deliberately deprive an already sick bird of vitamin b1. In my view the cure is worse than the disease if economics is not the driving force of the flock, which it is not here.