The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Phage]

If there is no American SOP for breeders to work towards what does "improving" mean?

People are mixing the very different looks and gene pools from the available cemani stock, and will produce the blackest birds possible, but what about type?
Some like the TM or GGF look, many will mix them (awesome IMO) but to what goal other than blackness?

If it is just blackness it would be logical to just use the blackest line currently available.

Without an SOP it will be hard for people to identify who are the breeders intent on improving the birds other that by making them black.

If it is decided that blackness is the only essential feature, what happens when someone presents a feather footed (for example) "American Cemani" or Breeds them with other FM birds they have?

Is it still a cemani if it is jet black?

Just thinking about how to "protect" the breed.

I know producing an SOP takes work but it also gives goals. And protects true breeders.

I agree. I don't think other fibro birds should be bred into the cemani and I don't think they should be considered cemani if so. I believe only using the pure lines available to us would produce a pure cemani. As far as type, I guess once we get the jet black under control we can work on type. I'm not really sure who can say at this point what the type should be or what it should look like.

Exactly! But shouldn't the discussion start by a group of sincere breeders?
It suspect it would take many years for an SOP to be fully developed, and yes it will take some of time and effort. Those in it for the long haul will have interest in developing it to their view of the perfect American Cemaini.

 

[Chickengirl1304]

Exactly! But shouldn't the discussion start by a group of sincere breeders?
It suspect it would take many years for an SOP to be fully developed, and yes it will take some of time and effort. Those in it for the long haul will have interest in developing it to their view of the perfect American Cemaini.

Yes. And the sop will more than likely look like the lines blended together. So if you want sop birds you may have to blend them. TM birds are much smaller and longer legged than gff. So a blend would be a new bird entirely. So a weight/egg color/tail angle/body shape will have to be decided upon once the lines are blended? Very confusing lol.

I do think first things first though, blend lines to make healthier, more genetically hearty birds which are BLACK

 

[Phage]

Super excited to see how those first blends look. That said some of the GFF birds I have seen so far look awesome too.

 

[Chickengirl1304]

Super excited to see how those first blends look. That said some of the GFF birds I have seen so far look awesome too.

My gff rooster is better than I expected. He is BLACK. Mouth everything. Great quality, gorgeous bird.

I like TM birds type better though. Although one nail on each toe isn't black they're very nice as well.

I too am excited for the blends. I also have another set of fibro birds that I absolutely love. Can't wait to hatch

 

[DCchicken]

If you are a breeder than needs a standard to improve their lines than I recommend spending the time to research the origins of Ayam Cemani and Ayam Kedu. There is also a proposed standard in the U.K. Rare Breeds of Poultry. Or if you don't like that one there is also one in Indonesia.

I do not plan on crossing any of my lines until each line is perfect. By crossing lines you risk making recessive traits appear.

 

[Phage]

@ Chickengirl
Cool!
Are you plannig on breeding imported cemani with the other FM (non-cemani) birds?

 

[Phage]

If you are a breeder than needs a standard to improve their lines than I recommend spending the time to research the origins of Ayam Cemani and Ayam Kedu. There is also a proposed standard in the U.K. Rare Breeds of Poultry. Or if you don't like that one there is also one in Indonesia.

I do not plan on crossing any of my lines until each line is perfect. By crossing lines you risk making recessive traits appear.

I believe that by crossing lines you reduce the likleyhood of recessive traits appearing. That is why siblings/cousins shouldn't marry.

Do you propose each breeder breeds to the selected foreign SOP of their choice rather than having an American one?

That is certainly a viable option especially in view of the history of the origins of the cemani (which I am aware of), but I fear it makes it easier for the just any black skinned bird to be called Cemani. Again maybe that is ok if the breeders want it, though I would be surprised if that is the case in view of all the earlier chat about "protecting your investments".

Maybe TM will take the lead.

I will get off my soapbox now and see what develops.

Just excited to finally see these birds in the US.

 

[Chickengirl1304]

@ Chickengirl
Cool!
Are you plannig on breeding imported cemani with the other FM (non-cemani) birds?

No I won't mix them. My other fm birds are a breed of their own and want to keep them pure as well as the cemani.

 

[Chickengirl1304]

I believe that by crossing lines you reduce the likleyhood of recessive traits appearing. That is why siblings/cousins shouldn't marry.

Do you propose each breeder breeds to the selected foreign SOP of their choice rather than having an American one?

That is certainly a viable option especially in view of the history of the origins of the cemani (which I am aware of), but I fear it makes it easier for the just any black skinned bird to be called Cemani. Again maybe that is ok if the breeders want it, though I would be surprised if that is the case in view of all the earlier chat about "protecting your investments".

Maybe TM will take the lead.

I will get off my soapbox now and see what develops.

Just excited to finally see these birds in the US.

Well it would be nice to figure something out. It would really suck to be breeding the lines together, or not, and then have it be the wrong thing to do for the sop.

 

[DCchicken]

Just practice good breeding practices and cull heavily for imperfections. Even if someone were to rush and write a SOP for Ayam Cemani, it would be 5+ years before any SOP became final. And I think it would take 5 or more years to get enough breeders to agree upon what is correct. Look at the Cream Legbar breeders (which I also breed). Right now there is a proposed SOP but many of the breeders disagree with it. So that SOP is going to be very difficult to get approved.

So just use good breeding practices and cull for non-FM birds. That is the advise that Toni-Marie Astin gave me when I started. And if you have any questions, just ask her. She is a wealth of knowledge and a wonderful person. And let's not forget Mike in New York. He is also a genetic expert. So we are not lacking for people with knowledge of this breed. If you really need a SOP to follow, just follow the U.K. one. It is easy enough to read. That's what the English Orpington breeders do (and what I do with my English Orpingtons).