The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Double Kindness]

I'm adding svart honas from dc in the spring to cross with the mike bean's non Smithsonian ac line I have. I'm getting gff ac in the spring from my local friend I got my current ac from. I need to make serious decisions about what all I am adding in the spring. Another line of white bresse and the one ac and sh are all I have planned. I'm selling off my laying flock in the spring to concentrate on bresse and black meat chickens (as meat and eggs are my goals, other dp breeds aren't suiting me).

I have more ac roos that I'm not able to caponize or have crow reduction surgery on.

 

[DCchicken]

I found another one that seems to crop up on Facebook:

Q: Is there a standard for Ayam Cemani?

A: It depends upon where you live in the world. There is a published standard in the country of origin, Indonesia. There is also the Dutch Standard. In the U.K., the Rare Breeds of Poultry has proposed a standard, but it was based upon the Dutch Standard. In the U.S., the APA does not currently have a proposed standard. If you are member of the American British Poultry Club, you can show your Ayam Cemani in their online shows. It that case, it would be judged using the U.K. proposed standard. So it just depends upon where you live and whether or not you want to show your birds as to which "Standard" you would use. I imagine that the ABPC will also be having national shows as their membership grows.

For those that do not know, the American British Poultry Club is a collection of breeders in the U.S. that formed because of differences in Standards between what the American Poultry Association publishes and what actually is available by breeders. For example, English Orpingtons are quite popular in the U.S. but cannot be shown in APA shows as they are different in size and appearance than English Orpingtons which are generally larger and available in many more colors such as Chocolate, Cuckoo, Lavender, etc.

Personally I breed using the Dutch Standard. But I also do not show birds in APA shows. Many breeders that I know only use the Standard from the country of origin. Since my line of birds came from the Netherlands, I use that standard. I would not hold out for an official APA Standard for Ayam Cemani. The APA is very strict on publishing standards and it takes many years for a standard to become published and only after a certain number of birds have been shown by a min of 5 established breeders that all meet the standard. Take a look at the work by the Cream Legbar Club if you want to look at how a new standard is written. If you just want an easy one to follow, use the Dutch or U.K. standards. Then if you want to show, you can show in the ABPC shows.

For those that live in the U.S., standards that are published by the APA are not set by breeders. The process is quite complex and usually involves forming a single club for a breed. The best example of this is the Cream Legbar Club or the Sulmtalers Club. That club usually writes and proposes a written standard to the APA. Then the APA can modify, improve, reject, or accept the proposed written standard. Then there is a waiting period, usually 5 years or so before during which a certain number of breeders will breed towards that standard and show their birds at approved venues. So it is correct to say that the APA does not have a Standard of Perfection for Ayam Cemani. However, other poultry clubs in the U.S. have formed separate from the APA. The ABPC is one of those non-APA poultry clubs that will judge using the country of origin and not the APA standards. So what standard you want to follow and breed towards just depends upon whether you follow APA or ABPC standards in the U.S.

 

[bluenkimchi]

What is the difference between Ayam Kedu Cemani and Ayam Pelung Cemani? These are two distinct different breeds, with different size,weight and shapes. Both can hatch out Cemani morph chicks and Dragon bone chicks.

And which breed hatched out Cemani morph chicks first?

Oh, btw, just my opinions, but I believe all European stocks( includes USA imported stocks) are of the Ayam Kedu Cemani breed, not Pelung..............................

Thanks in advance for any and all replies

 

[Double Kindness]

The vet that did the crow reduction surgery is high up on the cream legbar breeders thing, it's over my head the rules and regulations etc.

Could we start our own standard to begin the process?

 

[Randy2010]

I have crossed the Svart Hona's and the Ayam Cemani, and so far have not had any unwanted traits to show up in mine. Just waiting now for them to grow out and see how they size up to the others.

 

[DCchicken]

What is the difference between Ayam Kedu Cemani and Ayam Pelung Cemani? These are two distinct different breeds, with different size,weight and shapes. Both can hatch out Cemani morph chicks and Dragon bone chicks.

And which breed hatched out Cemani morph chicks first?

Oh, btw, just my opinions, but I believe all European stocks( includes USA imported stocks) are of the Ayam Kedu Cemani breed, not Pelung..............................

Thanks in advance for any and all replies

The Pelungs are longcrowers. It takes a certain body type to be a longcrower. Usually the Pelungs are tall birds with large legs and a crow that goes on for a while.

The Ayam Cemani in the U.S. come from different countries. The TM Astin are Dutch Standard and originate from the Netherlands, although some of the breeders now follow other standards. Greenfire's line originate from the U.K. and were most likely bred towards the U.K. standard which is based upon the translated Dutch Standard.

When most people say "Cemani" they are usually referring to chickens from either the Cemani or Kedu regions. It is unknown whether the hyperpigmentation (caused by the black gene) originated from either the Kedu or the Cemani region. Most likely it originates from a no longer existing common bird that was bred to green jungle fowl. It is known that the Dutch carried black skinned chickens with them from Indonesia and other Asian countries to the Americas and Europe. In Europe this black pigmented chicken was later bred with other local chicken breeds in the Svart and Hona regions to become the chicken we call Svart Hona. In America, the chicken that the Dutch imported was also bred to other breeds. Over time, this developed in the American Java chicken. However, it is important to point out that the Java chicken no longer retains the FM genes of its Asian counterparts.

And let's not forget that there are other FM breeds such as Ogye (Vietnam), Hmong (China), Silkie (Japan). And since many of the Ogye in the U.S. were illegally smuggled into the country, many are sold as Ayam Cemani. So it is going to be very, very difficult for the APA to pick a single set of attributes for a SOP. That's why so many Cemani breeders are choosing the standard for the country of origin for their line. The birds probably already match that Standard. The important thing here is for breeders to just pick a standard that suits them and breed towards that standard. Then when you sell your birds, just state which standard you follow.

 

[DCchicken]

The vet that did the crow reduction surgery is high up on the cream legbar breeders thing, it's over my head the rules and regulations etc.

Could we start our own standard to begin the process?

There is actually a formal process for the APA to recognize a standard. It is the APA that publishes the standard, not a community. Many times the APA Standard does not actually represent birds that breeders are selling at the moment. The best example of this is Orpington breed. Most of the Orpingtons that people are buying right now would be disqualified under the APA Standard.

 

[DCchicken]

I have crossed the Svart Hona's and the Ayam Cemani, and so far have not had any unwanted traits to show up in mine. Just waiting now for them to grow out and see how they size up to the others.

Did you cross using Bryce's line or Greenfire's Svart Hona? I keep wanting to take my original import roo and and put him in a separate batch of my latest generation TM Cemani. But he is gentle that I am afraid the hens might tear him up. The other problem is people seem to be interested in pure Svart Hona or pure Ayam Cemani but not crosses. So maybe in the future.

 

[maranfarmer563]

Are there any pelungs in the country? I raise denizli and tomaru and would be interested in some. Thanks Jody

 

[Randy2010]

Did you cross using Bryce's line or Greenfire's Svart Hona? I keep wanting to take my original import roo and and put him in a separate batch of my latest generation TM Cemani. But he is gentle that I am afraid the hens might tear him up. The other problem is people seem to be interested in pure Svart Hona or pure Ayam Cemani but not crosses. So maybe in the future.

I cross a hen from Bryce with my rooster Cemani from Greenfire farm. I'm thinking may not be as big, the next time I'm going to cross a rooster from Bryce line to a hen from Greenfire and then compare the two.