The "Ask Anything" to Nicalandia Thread

[SourRoses]

Autosexing works with pure breeds. For example: Cream Legbar hen x Cream Legbar rooster = autosexing Cream Legbar chicks. Breed those chicks, and their chicks will also be autosexing Cream Legbars. You can keep it going forever.

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, sorry, but I haven't seen it...

What genes actually make for autosexing that breeds true?

 

[NatJ]

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, sorry, but I haven't seen it...

What genes actually make for autosexing that breeds true?

It is mostly based on the barring gene, which is on the Z sex chromosome.
Females have ZW, so they can only have one barring gene.
Males have ZZ, so they can have two barring genes, and that makes them lighter than the females that have one.

Most autosexing breeds are based on wildtype (e+) coloring, like Cream Legbars and Bielefelders. Two barring genes makes the males have a head spot, and overall lighter color when they hatch. There must be some other genes that also affect it, because such breeds can be selectively bred to show the differences more clearly, or the sexing trait can be ignored and end up with ones that do not show the differences very clearly.

Barred Rocks and other black-based barred breeds can also be autosexing, with some selection and a bit of practice. The males typically hatch with a larger head spot, and lighter legs. They grow feathers with more white. The females have darker legs, their head spot is generally smaller and more clearly defined, and their feathers are overall darker because they have less white.

 

[dcrumrin]

I have a pair of White booted bantams that are known to be recessive white homozygous, but the underlying colors are unknown. In many white booted, the underlying color is mille fleur, but I don't know that. In hatching out chicks I've discovered that what I assume to be males are expressing red leakage, mostly in head and neck. The old timers would tell you that the way to perfect the white is by a lot of hatching and hard culling, using only pure whites to pure whites. Will this eradicate the genes involved over time? Are there other ways to influence the recessive white to eliminate the leakage? What about mating to pure E based blacks that have Melanotic? The option I've thought about is the addition of Dominant White from Golden Necks. I fear I may be introducing more problems if I do that. There is also a possibility of using S/S Co/Co based birds to influence the white. I have not been able to find any information from white breeders to find if this problem is common. I have a possibly linked issue with slate shanks where the standard calls for white. The male is light shanked (could be heterozygous for Id melanin) and the hen is slate (probably id+) I don't want to do anything to create more leg problems than I have to. (beaks are pure white) I've started thinking about breeding plans and have about a dozen chicks but can't tell their full phenotypes yet.

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I have a pair of White booted bantams that are known to be recessive white homozygous, but the underlying colors are unknown. In many white booted, the underlying color is mille fleur, but I don't know that. In hatching out chicks I've discovered that what I assume to be males are expressing red leakage, mostly in head and neck. The old timers would tell you that the way to perfect the white is by a lot of hatching and hard culling, using only pure whites to pure whites. Will this eradicate the genes involved over time? Are there other ways to influence the recessive white to eliminate the leakage? What about mating to pure E based blacks that have Melanotic? The option I've thought about is the addition of Dominant White from Golden Necks. I fear I may be introducing more problems if I do that. There is also a possibility of using S/S Co/Co based birds to influence the white. I have not been able to find any information from white breeders to find if this problem is common. I have a possibly linked issue with slate shanks where the standard calls for white. The male is light shanked (could be heterozygous for Id melanin) and the hen is slate (probably id+) I don't want to do anything to create more leg problems than I have to. (beaks are pure white) I've started thinking about breeding plans and have about a dozen chicks but can't tell their full phenotypes yet.
View attachment 3525692

Maybe something like Gold Neck? Mine looked kinda like that when they were growing up.

 

[SourRoses]

It is mostly based on the barring gene, which is on the Z sex chromosome.
Females have ZW, so they can only have one barring gene.
Males have ZZ, so they can have two barring genes, and that makes them lighter than the females that have one.

Most autosexing breeds are based on wildtype (e+) coloring, like Cream Legbars and Bielefelders. Two barring genes makes the males have a head spot, and overall lighter color when they hatch. There must be some other genes that also affect it, because such breeds can be selectively bred to show the differences more clearly, or the sexing trait can be ignored and end up with ones that do not show the differences very clearly.

Barred Rocks and other black-based barred breeds can also be autosexing, with some selection and a bit of practice. The males typically hatch with a larger head spot, and lighter legs. They grow feathers with more white. The females have darker legs, their head spot is generally smaller and more clearly defined, and their feathers are overall darker because they have less white.

Thank you! I already sex the Hackles by headspots and color so I should have realized, now I feel silly.

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

I have a pair of White booted bantams that are known to be recessive white homozygous, but the underlying colors are unknown. In many white booted, the underlying color is mille fleur, but I don't know that. In hatching out chicks I've discovered that what I assume to be males are expressing red leakage, mostly in head and neck. The old timers would tell you that the way to perfect the white is by a lot of hatching and hard culling, using only pure whites to pure whites. Will this eradicate the genes involved over time? Are there other ways to influence the recessive white to eliminate the leakage? What about mating to pure E based blacks that have Melanotic? The option I've thought about is the addition of Dominant White from Golden Necks. I fear I may be introducing more problems if I do that. There is also a possibility of using S/S Co/Co based birds to influence the white. I have not been able to find any information from white breeders to find if this problem is common. I have a possibly linked issue with slate shanks where the standard calls for white. The male is light shanked (could be heterozygous for Id melanin) and the hen is slate (probably id+) I don't want to do anything to create more leg problems than I have to. (beaks are pure white) I've started thinking about breeding plans and have about a dozen chicks but can't tell their full phenotypes yet.
View attachment 3525692

You can get rid of gold leakage on a white bird by breeding in the silver gene, since silver (white) leakage won’t show up

 

[dcrumrin]

You can get rid of gold leakage on a white bird by breeding in the silver gene, since silver (white) leakage won’t show up

I thought of that, the only bird I could possibly get would be a white columbian. Not sure if the Co gene would also help, some people say it would. I would rather not introduce a new breed since this line is well typed for the breed. I may have to. I guess the question I'm wondering is if there are other, unknown? pheomelanin influencers that may be hidden in the birds and need to be selected for, or whether it may be a less powerful recessive white allele that is causing the leakage. This seems to be an issue with others with that line and wondering if it's just a long term project to eradicate it, or if it a genetic issue that is always going to be there. There is (supposedly) a recessive white in Japanese longtails that allows for random red spotting. Brian Reeder calls it RSY^D (Red Shouldered Yokahama Diluter). If I did use a silver bird, I believe using a male over a recessive white female would be the best choice. I would rather know that there is a genetic possibility of a modifier gene that could make the red leakage go away, or perhaps if this is pheomelanin enhancing gene to work to get rid of.

 

[dcrumrin]

Maybe something like Gold Neck? Mine looked kinda like that when they were growing up.

I have gold neck and though this is somewhat similar, it only effects the head and neck and comes in when hormones start being produced in males. It's also very light, even lighter than the dominant white effects on gold.

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

I thought of that, the only bird I could possibly get would be a white columbian. Not sure if the Co gene would also help, some people say it would. I would rather not introduce a new breed since this line is well typed for the breed. I may have to. I guess the question I'm wondering is if there are other, unknown? pheomelanin influencers that may be hidden in the birds and need to be selected for, or whether it may be a less powerful recessive white allele that is causing the leakage. This seems to be an issue with others with that line and wondering if it's just a long term project to eradicate it, or if it a genetic issue that is always going to be there. There is (supposedly) a recessive white in Japanese longtails that allows for random red spotting. Brian Reeder calls it RSY^D (Red Shouldered Yokahama Diluter). If I did use a silver bird, I believe using a male over a recessive white female would be the best choice.

Ah, so you can’t get something like a silver mille fleur booted bantam to breed in?

 

[dcrumrin]

Ah, so you can’t get something like a silver mille fleur booted bantam to breed in?

Possibly but I don't think they exist in Booted Bantams in the US, only a very few here and there in d'Uccle,