The "Ask Anything" to Nicalandia Thread

[everyday_farmlife]

Not Nicalandia, but yes, that will produce sex-linked chicks.

With sex-linked genes in poultry, males can have two alleles per locus because they have a zz sex chromosome, but females are limited to one allele because they have a zw sex chromosome, the 'w' not allowing for another allele on sex-linked locus basically. Females receive their w chromosome, basically a null gene on the barring locus, from their mothers, and receive their either B(barred) or b+(not barred) gene from their father.

A light sussex father would donate a b+ gene to his daughters and sons, but the sons would also receive a B gene from their mother, since they get their genes from both parents. Males receive the gene, and get a headspot; females do not receive the gene, and do not have headspots. This one would definitely work as well, since the black base of the plymouth rock dominates the silver columbia base of the light sussex, so the white headspot of the males should be easily visible.


Photos included in case I didn't explain it well.
View attachment 3650826
View attachment 3650829

Thankyou very much this is what I was of the understanding of
Especially since this was half of this hatches outcome!

 

[Prairie Hills Homestead]

This is an old thread but I was wondering if it is still active?
I am trying to understand all the genetics behind sexlinks. I know that a solid cock over barred hens will create sexlinks - That is - black copper marans over cukoo marans.
I am working on a barred true blue and was wondering about their genetics if you know anything about the whiting true blues -
Also - I am looking into feather sexing or color sexing. - I read that a slow maturing breed over a fast maturing one can create a specific wing feather pattern for pullet vs cockerel at hatch, is that correct? Like a brahma over a leghorn..
Also I am trying to understand blue/silver genetics, if you have the time or are wanting to answer!
I appreciate you!

 

[NatJ]

This is an old thread but I was wondering if it is still active?

Yes. For any thread, if you look at the dates on the last few posts, you can tell if the thread is still active. The most recent posts in this thread were less than a week ago.

NIcalandia answers some questions, but several other people also know enough about genetics to answer some questions. (Warning: being brief is NOT my strong point when answering genetics questions.)

I am trying to understand all the genetics behind sexlinks.

All the genetics for sexlinks:

A rooster has sex chromosomes ZZ. He inherits one from each parent, and gives one to each chick. A hen has sex chromosomes ZW. She inherits Z from her father and gives it to her sons, and she inherits W from her mother and gives it to her daughters.

Sexlinks are made with genes on the Z sex chromosomes.

The father needs to show a recessive gene. If he shows it, then he cannot be carrying the dominant gene (because he would show it instead.)

The mother needs to have a dominant gene. Since she only has one Z chromosome, she can't be carrying anything else.

Crossing them gives daughters who show the recessive gene (inherited from the father, with W inherited from the mother.) And sons who show the dominant gene (inherited from the mother) while carrying the recessive gene (inherited from the father.)

Genes that can be used include:
Silver (dominant over gold)
Slow feathering (dominant over fast feathering)
Barring (dominant over not-barred)
Not-chocolate (dominant over chocolate)

For some of those, there are times when that particular gene will not work. For example, an all-black chicken is not going to show gold vs. silver. An all-white chicken is not going to show chocolate vs. not-chocolate. They can have the correct genes, but with the effect hidden by something else so you can't see it.

There is a sex-linked gene that controls dark vs. light skin on the feet, but it isn't usually helpful for sexlinks because the foot color often takes days or weeks after hatch to be visible, and some other genes can hide, imitate, or modify the effects. (I have seen some cases when it worked well for sexing chicks at a few weeks of age, before the males were showing red combs.)

I know that a solid cock over barred hens will create sexlinks - That is - black copper marans over cukoo marans.

Yes, that is correct.

I am working on a barred true blue and was wondering about their genetics if you know anything about the whiting true blues

They come in a variety of colors and patterns. You would have to look at the individual bird to get an idea of what genes they have, and some will need test-mating to really figure out. If you want specific colors to work with, you might want to order a large number of chicks and pick the most promising colors for your project. You might be able to sell the others, or co-ordinate in advance with someone who wants colored eggs but doesn't care what color the feathers are.

Also - I am looking into feather sexing or color sexing. - I read that a slow maturing breed over a fast maturing one can create a specific wing feather pattern for pullet vs cockerel at hatch, is that correct?

Slow-feathering and fast-feathering, yes.
The chicks can be sexed at hatch by the wing feathering, but they can also be sexed for the next few weeks because "slow feathering" causes exactly what you would expect: the feathers grow slower.

Once they all have their first set of feathers, you cannot tell who had fast or slow feathering, so you should be prepared to separate or mark them before they reach that point.

Like a brahma over a leghorn..

Yes, Brahmas typically have slow feathering and Leghorns typically have fast feathering.

Those exact breeds also tend to have slow maturity in other ways (Brahma) and fast maturity in other ways (Leghorn), but that is just a coincidence. I have seen slow feathering in some chickens that were fast to mature in other ways (cockerels got big combs at an early age, pullets were among the first to start laying.) So the rate of maturity in other ways does not tell you anything about the fast vs. slow feathering gene.

Also I am trying to understand blue/silver genetics, if you have the time or are wanting to answer!

I'm not sure what you mean by blue/silver. Do you mean chickens with both blue and silver, like a blue laced silver pattern? Or do you mean blue/splash, which are two different effects of the blue gene?

The Blue Gene

On a black chicken:
Two copies of the blue gene turns the chicken into splash (white or light gray, with bits of blue or black "splashed" on it.)
One copy of the blue gene turns the chicken blue.
No copies of the blue gene leaves the chicken black.

On a chicken with a pattern of black and some other color:
The black is affected by the blue gene (just like the previous example of an all-black chicken.) The other color is not affected.

So a red chicken with black lacing can become a red chicken with blue lacing or a red chicken with splash lacing. (Common example: Blue Laced Red Wyandottes. Breeding them will produce some chicks that have black lacing, some that have blue lacing, and some that have splash lacing.)

A Silver Laced chicken (black lacing on a silver background) can become a Blue Laced Silver chicken, or a Splash Laced Silver chicken. Likewise Silver Spangled (black spangling on silver) can become Blue Spangled Silver or Splash Spangled Silver. Or Silver Columbian can become Blue Columbian or Splash Columbian.

Breeding:
Black x black = black chicks
Splash x Splash = splash chicks
Black x splash = blue chicks
Blue x Black = 50% blue chicks, 50% black chicks
Blue x Splash = 50% blue chicks, 50% splash chicks
Blue x Blue = 25% black chicks, 50% blue chicks, 25% splash chicks

(A blue chicken can give the blue gene or the not-blue gene to each chick. A splash chicken only gives the blue gene, and a black chicken only gives the black gene. The list of breeding combinations is what you get when you trace which parent can give what genes, and what that causes for the colors of the chicks.)

The black/blue/splash breeding patterns affect all the black parts of the chicken. So a Black Laced Red chicken is "black" and a Blue Laced Red chicken is "blue" for this purpose.

An actual black chicken has quite a few genes that could also be called "black."
Or you could call them not-Blue, not-Dominant White, not-Chocolate, etc. (referring to what the other gene could be for each of those spots on the chicken's chromosome.) But that gets pretty awkward, so people often just say "black" when they mean the not-blue form of the blue gene.

The Silver Gene

It is on the Z sex chromosome. Silver is dominant over gold. "Gold" is any of the red/gold/cream shades (several other genes affect this.) The Silver gene turns gold into white.

To get a nice clean "silver" color does require several other genes to help. So if you mix gold and silver chickens, you may get some "silvers" that look a bit yellowish or dingy. Silver chickens can also have a salmon-colored breast in the females, and red leakage in the shoulders & wings of males (those effects are caused at least partly by some other genes, that do not seem to be completely understood.) A rooster who has both the silver gene and the gold gene is more likely to show yellowish feathers and red leakage, as compared with a rooster who is pure for the silver gene. But just being pure for silver isn't always enough to get a nice-looking silver. A hen is genetically silver or gold but never both, because she only has one Z sex chromosome. So a salmon breast on a silver hen is not caused by carrying gold, because a hen can never carry gold.

 

[Egg Snatcher]

If i breed recessive white to white black tailed I’ll get black recessive white chicks right? Then if I take the black recessive white chicks and breed back to recessive white I’ll get white chicks right?

 

[NatJ]

If i breed recessive white to white black tailed I’ll get black recessive white chicks right?

Maybe, maybe not. All the chicks will carry recessive white, but they may not look black.

Then if I take the black recessive white chicks and breed back to recessive white I’ll get white chicks right?

That sounds mostly right, for 50% of the chicks. The other 50% should be carrying recessive white, and showing some other colors (maybe not black: probably the same or similar coloring to what their mothers had.)

 

[Prairie Hills Homestead]

Yes. For any thread, if you look at the dates on the last few posts, you can tell if the thread is still active. The most recent posts in this thread were less than a week ago.

NIcalandia answers some questions, but several other people also know enough about genetics to answer some questions. (Warning: being brief is NOT my strong point when answering genetics questions.)


All the genetics for sexlinks:

A rooster has sex chromosomes ZZ. He inherits one from each parent, and gives one to each chick. A hen has sex chromosomes ZW. She inherits Z from her father and gives it to her sons, and she inherits W from her mother and gives it to her daughters.

Sexlinks are made with genes on the Z sex chromosomes.

The father needs to show a recessive gene. If he shows it, then he cannot be carrying the dominant gene (because he would show it instead.)

The mother needs to have a dominant gene. Since she only has one Z chromosome, she can't be carrying anything else.

Crossing them gives daughters who show the recessive gene (inherited from the father, with W inherited from the mother.) And sons who show the dominant gene (inherited from the mother) while carrying the recessive gene (inherited from the father.)

Genes that can be used include:
Silver (dominant over gold)
Slow feathering (dominant over fast feathering)
Barring (dominant over not-barred)
Not-chocolate (dominant over chocolate)

For some of those, there are times when that particular gene will not work. For example, an all-black chicken is not going to show gold vs. silver. An all-white chicken is not going to show chocolate vs. not-chocolate. They can have the correct genes, but with the effect hidden by something else so you can't see it.

There is a sex-linked gene that controls dark vs. light skin on the feet, but it isn't usually helpful for sexlinks because the foot color often takes days or weeks after hatch to be visible, and some other genes can hide, imitate, or modify the effects. (I have seen some cases when it worked well for sexing chicks at a few weeks of age, before the males were showing red combs.)


Yes, that is correct.


They come in a variety of colors and patterns. You would have to look at the individual bird to get an idea of what genes they have, and some will need test-mating to really figure out. If you want specific colors to work with, you might want to order a large number of chicks and pick the most promising colors for your project. You might be able to sell the others, or co-ordinate in advance with someone who wants colored eggs but doesn't care what color the feathers are.


Slow-feathering and fast-feathering, yes.
The chicks can be sexed at hatch by the wing feathering, but they can also be sexed for the next few weeks because "slow feathering" causes exactly what you would expect: the feathers grow slower.

Once they all have their first set of feathers, you cannot tell who had fast or slow feathering, so you should be prepared to separate or mark them before they reach that point.


Yes, Brahmas typically have slow feathering and Leghorns typically have fast feathering.

Those exact breeds also tend to have slow maturity in other ways (Brahma) and fast maturity in other ways (Leghorn), but that is just a coincidence. I have seen slow feathering in some chickens that were fast to mature in other ways (cockerels got big combs at an early age, pullets were among the first to start laying.) So the rate of maturity in other ways does not tell you anything about the fast vs. slow feathering gene.


I'm not sure what you mean by blue/silver. Do you mean chickens with both blue and silver, like a blue laced silver pattern? Or do you mean blue/splash, which are two different effects of the blue gene?

The Blue Gene

On a black chicken:
Two copies of the blue gene turns the chicken into splash (white or light gray, with bits of blue or black "splashed" on it.)
One copy of the blue gene turns the chicken blue.
No copies of the blue gene leaves the chicken black.

On a chicken with a pattern of black and some other color:
The black is affected by the blue gene (just like the previous example of an all-black chicken.) The other color is not affected.

So a red chicken with black lacing can become a red chicken with blue lacing or a red chicken with splash lacing. (Common example: Blue Laced Red Wyandottes. Breeding them will produce some chicks that have black lacing, some that have blue lacing, and some that have splash lacing.)

A Silver Laced chicken (black lacing on a silver background) can become a Blue Laced Silver chicken, or a Splash Laced Silver chicken. Likewise Silver Spangled (black spangling on silver) can become Blue Spangled Silver or Splash Spangled Silver. Or Silver Columbian can become Blue Columbian or Splash Columbian.

Breeding:
Black x black = black chicks
Splash x Splash = splash chicks
Black x splash = blue chicks
Blue x Black = 50% blue chicks, 50% black chicks
Blue x Splash = 50% blue chicks, 50% splash chicks
Blue x Blue = 25% black chicks, 50% blue chicks, 25% splash chicks

(A blue chicken can give the blue gene or the not-blue gene to each chick. A splash chicken only gives the blue gene, and a black chicken only gives the black gene. The list of breeding combinations is what you get when you trace which parent can give what genes, and what that causes for the colors of the chicks.)

The black/blue/splash breeding patterns affect all the black parts of the chicken. So a Black Laced Red chicken is "black" and a Blue Laced Red chicken is "blue" for this purpose.

An actual black chicken has quite a few genes that could also be called "black."
Or you could call them not-Blue, not-Dominant White, not-Chocolate, etc. (referring to what the other gene could be for each of those spots on the chicken's chromosome.) But that gets pretty awkward, so people often just say "black" when they mean the not-blue form of the blue gene.

The Silver Gene

It is on the Z sex chromosome. Silver is dominant over gold. "Gold" is any of the red/gold/cream shades (several other genes affect this.) The Silver gene turns gold into white.

To get a nice clean "silver" color does require several other genes to help. So if you mix gold and silver chickens, you may get some "silvers" that look a bit yellowish or dingy. Silver chickens can also have a salmon-colored breast in the females, and red leakage in the shoulders & wings of males (those effects are caused at least partly by some other genes, that do not seem to be completely understood.) A rooster who has both the silver gene and the gold gene is more likely to show yellowish feathers and red leakage, as compared with a rooster who is pure for the silver gene. But just being pure for silver isn't always enough to get a nice-looking silver. A hen is genetically silver or gold but never both, because she only has one Z sex chromosome. So a salmon breast on a silver hen is not caused by carrying gold, because a hen can never carry gold.

Thank you SO MUCH! That made it easier for me to understand. I was close but didn't have the science behind it entirely. I love genetics but can get sucked into a deep rabbit hole and I DEEPLY appreciate you writing it out for me!

 

[NatJ]

Thank you SO MUCH! That made it easier for me to understand. I was close but didn't have the science behind it entirely. I love genetics but can get sucked into a deep rabbit hole and I DEEPLY appreciate you writing it out for me!

Yes, genetics can be quite a deep, fun rabbit hole. I have been falling into it repeatedly for a while now

 

[Auntiejessi3]

Question: my friend is hatching eggs from her blue orp roo over red sexlinks and welsummers, will the chicks be leg sexlinked (females slate, makes yellow)?

 

[NatJ]

Question: my friend is hatching eggs from her blue orp roo over red sexlinks and welsummers, will the chicks be leg sexlinked (females slate, makes yellow)?

Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think the "slate" legs on the Blue Orpington are caused by the sex-linked gene for dark/light skin.

Chickens with solid black feathers tend to have black on the legs too, caused by the gene that makes the feathers black (E, Extended Black). When a gene makes the black lighter (blue, splash, lavender), it makes the legs lighter too. So a blue having slate legs is probably just an effect of the genes that make his feathers be that color.

Otherwise, yes that would be the right set of parents for leg-color sexlinks (dark-legged father, light-legged mothers). It just doesn't work when the "dark" legs are caused by a different gene

 

[Auntiejessi3]

Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think the "slate" legs on the Blue Orpington are caused by the sex-linked gene for dark/light skin.

Chickens with solid black feathers tend to have black on the legs too, caused by the gene that makes the feathers black (E, Extended Black). When a gene makes the black lighter (blue, splash, lavender), it makes the legs lighter too. So a blue having slate legs is probably just an effect of the genes that make his feathers be that color.

Otherwise, yes that would be the right set of parents for leg-color sexlinks (dark-legged father, light-legged mothers). It just doesn't work when the "dark" legs are caused by a different gene

Thank you!