Almost forgot to add a picture of what I think is spangle. I do see fine white edges so not sure.
I think that is more likely to be caused by the mottling gene.
My apologies for not using correct terms. I'm still learning to think in those words as well as learning the correct words to use.
Even if you use the "correct" terms, it can still be confusing. That's why I asked for clarification
There are too many terms that have multiple meanings. For example, a "spangled" Hamburg has the pattern gene with some other genes making black dots on the tips of the feathers. But a "spangled" Old English Game Bantam has the mottling gene making white tips on the feathers, with black behind that, and various amounts of red and black in the rest of the feathers. They have very different genetics involved, and they do not even look alike, but they are called by the same name.
There are many colors and varieties that were named when people had no idea of the genetics involved, and then the names kept being used. And sometimes people called the same color by differnet names, or used one name for chickens that looked alike but had different genetics (obvious example: a "white" chicken is easy to recognize, but there are several different genes or combinations of genes that can cause that appearance.)
By tri-color I mean each bird carries some version of red/brown, white mottling and black pattern and/or spangles. I believe they're all wild type/bbr/duckwing with some Columbian and Millie fluer. Can't miss the mottling and think I see spangles in some. Hope I'm not overdoing the pictures.
OK, that makes sense. The pictures definitely help.
I think the "spangling" is probably an effect of the mottling gene. If I am right about that, it would not be something that needs to be considered separately.
Then there's the blues. My blue breeding have produced some differently colored/patterned birds. Most of them look like the above with blue, but I do have a few paler ones like this hen (no roosters like this but several hens) that I thought might carry silver.
A silver hen can still have a salmon-colored breast, but should not have gold color on the rest of her body.
That hen definitely has some gold color on the feathers of her back, so I think she probably does not have the silver gene.
A hen does not really "carry" the silver gene. She either is silver, or is not silver. That is because she only has one Z chromosome. So either she has silver on there, or she has gold, but never both. (Her other sex chromosome being the W that makes her female.) [Edit: oh, I see that you do have this straight in a later paragraph, when you call her "hemizygous." Good.]
For the large amounts of white on that hen, I have two guesses:
--it might be caused by the mottling gene. Some mottled chickens have much more white than others.
--it might be splash, caused by two copies of the blue gene.
(Of course it is also possible for both of those to be true at the same time.)
So far all chicks from her to the silver boys have had yellow down instead of white down and I expected them to all be white down because I was thinking homogeneous silver roos over a hemizygous hen. They haven't grown up enough to see the adult coloring, but I'm back to trying to figure out which hen is carrying silver because I wonder if I got it wrong.
I agree with the logic.
A rooster who is homozygous for silver (two copies of the silver gene)
with a hen who is hemizygous for silver (one copy of the silver gene is the most she can ever have)
should produce chicks that are pure for silver.
I've seen some chicks with silver that have yellow in their down, so I would definitely watch to see what colors they grow in their feathers.
This rooster I believe is the dad of all the silver babies I got.
Based on appearance, I would expect him to be homozygous gold (pure for gold.)
Crossing him to a silver hen should produce sexlink chicks: gold daughters and silver-carrying-gold sons.
If that is what you got, then I think there must be a silver hen in the flock somwhere, so the trouble is to recognize her!
Now I know what you meant by this question:
I'm trying to figure out if these birds are silver, and if they are, what the silver carrying hens look like as adults... If I understand correctly, if it's silver then all the hens are likely to be tri-color even though I did get one almost all white hen in this trio I'm asking about. Do I understand correctly that most silver hens are nearly normal colored?
To try to find the Silver hen(s), I would look at the feathers on their backs and sides (not breasts), and see if you can find any that do not have gold (red or brown are also "gold" for this purpose.)
In addition, the blue breeding have produced these two roosters. These definitely came from the above rooster. No hens like them though so far. Playing with the kippenjungle calculator makes me think these are splash birds. I'm thinking two blue genes plus mahogany and silver produced this color.
I think you are probably right. The father definitely has blue, which means he can produce splash when mated to a blue hen, and those two do look splash.
Yes, silver would remove the gold color, leaving white.
Yes, they would probably still have red leakage, and the Mahogany gene would make it darker and more obvious. That seems to fit what I see in the photos.
My kippenjungle input was the below; set for both roo and hen (S/- hen). The roo doesn't quite look like the parent roo of these two birds (my roo has a dark head with a small paler fringe at the base), but the expected offspring were predicted to look like my above boys and were splash.
Hmm. I would have thought your rooster (father of those two) was just gold, not silver. But I supposed he could be silver/gold split, with large amounts of leakage.
If the rooster is homozygous gold (s+/s+) and the hen is hemizygous silver (S/_), then their daughters would be gold (s+/_) and their sons would be heterozygous silver (S/s+).
But if the rooster is actually heterozygous silver/gold (S/s+) like you set the calculator, and the hen is still hemizygous silver (S/_), then some sons could be homozygous silver (S/S) while some other sons could be heterozygous silver (S/s+). Daughters could be hemizygous silver (S/_) or hemizygous gold (s+/_)
If the rooster is actually a heterozygote (S/s+), then that could be why you have so far not found a silver hen: there might not be one.
So I'm thinking theres mahogany in my birds turning what should be gold in the roo to what my boy looks like.
Mahogany can affect gold caused by the gold gene (like on the backs of the hens, and on the breasts of some roosters.) I'm fairly sure Mahogany can also affect red/gold that appears even in silver chickens: wings/shoulders of males, hackle & saddle of males, "salmon" breast of females.
For an extreme example, I've read that Salmon Faverolles are genetically silver with Mahogany. They sure don't look white! I suppose you might have something similar going on with some of your chickens, with more red/brown/salmon shades than would usually be normal in silver chickens.
And I'm wondering if the hens like the next picture could be the silver carriers (or Columbian without Millie? Or silver plus Columbian without Millie?)
I would not think so, because of the amount of gold in the wings and back. That looks like a gold hen to me.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Millie."
If you mean the Mille Fleur color (like in d'Uccles), that usually involves gold, Columbian, and mottling. I think Mille Fleur d'Uccles are typically E^Wh (Wheaten) rather than e+ (Duckwing/wild type), but I've seen Mille Fleur Old English bantams that were definitely based on e+ (judging by the chipmunk-stripes in the chicks.)
or if it is the pale colored ones I'm already trying.
I think the pale ones are more likely to have Silver, unless it turns out that the Silver is actually coming from your rooster and not from any of the hens at all.
I'm also wondering if I can figure out which birds are carrying mahogany without test breeding all my hens back to the one roo I believe must carry it. Then breeding the hens with mahogany back to the roos to find the mahogany carrying roos.
From what I've read, Mahogany should be a dominant gene.
I think you just need to look at which ones have rich red/brown shades (Mahogany) and which ones have lighter gold/buff shades (not Mahogany.)
For the silver carrying hens...am I understanding silver enough when thinking that my silver carrying hens should be paler versions of non-silver hens? I've never owned silver birds so I'm just reading and looking at pictures to help me figure out tells.
Silver hens "should" have all gold/red/brown shades replaced with white, with the one exception that breasts can still be a salmon color. (I keep seeing people call it "salmon." To me, it looks like part of the gold/red/brown spectrum of chicken colors, although I have sometimes noticed it to be a slightly different shade-- maybe shifted a little bit more pink than the colors that appear on other parts of the chicken. So maybe that's why it is given a different name.)
I understand landrace mutt birds are awful to try to figure out genes...but I really want to try.
It is definitely more complicated than figuring out the genes of some other chickens.
Whether that is fun or annoying depends on the person, and at least for me is sometimes depends on my mood as well (it could be "Big puzzle! Yay! Fun!" or "you want to figure out WHAT?!" for the very same question, at different times. That is true whether it's someone else's question or even a question of my own that I am trying to figure out.)
I just love these guys and think they might be my forever birds. But I also have way too many birds and need to get rid of some. I don't want to lose the birds that breed my favorites. I know I want to keep mahogany and I'm still deciding what I think of the silver gene, but I think I want to lose silver.
Yes, that is a good reason to figure it out.
If you want to keep Mahogany but get rid of silver, at least for hens: keep ones that have a nice amount of gold or red in their back & wing feathers. Ignore the breast color, and the amounts of black and white.
For roosters, I'm not as sure, because of how much leakage can happen even in Silver roosters, and because even roosters without Mahogany can show some dark red in their shoulders and saddles.