the Blackest Ones: on exploring the significance of Cemani mutations

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Resolution, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. gootziecat

    gootziecat Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Pretty hen, Lisa. She looks to be a good utility hen as well as being beautiful. Is she by your JG roo?
     
  2. Actually, her mother was a JG hen. Her father was a Naked Neck from ({[(Silkie x Naked Neck) x Cochin] x Jersey Giant} X Ameraucana) --- or something close to that.
    The chicks I've been hatching the last few weeks are from the blue fm girl's *fm children (blue girl mated back with Ameraucana) and some random fm chicks from NN projects, mated with that splash Rock guy in the pic.
    *They surprised me and lay some amazingly blue(ish) eggs.
     
  3. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Anyone interested in a reconstituted cemani - and let me reiterate clearly, cemani is not a breed. It's a carefully selected morphotype. When specific genetic matrix are line bred for generations cemani are produced. That's only 25% of the equation. Black boned cemani morphs bred together should produce Hsian Dragonbone, which is the "wild type" that Indonesian stock reverts to. This is critical because in these birds we can recognise what degree of bekisar genetics are expressed in that lineage. Quality cemani are produced by breeding from dragonbone. That will seem counter-productive to some people. They want cemani to produce cemani . In Western cultures there is also a tendency to cull and dump stock that is actually invaluable. In Indonesia those individuals that don't look like cemani are simply named accordingly to their type. Dragonbone being a prime example.

    In these mirror phenotypes of Indonesians produced in North America and Europe -without the benefit of recent infusion of genetics from Indonesia - I don't have confidence what "wild type" will be produced. The degree of development of modern breeds refined in the west is much greater than that in Indonesia. Each breed breeds true. They produce more of the same and most of the stock is really well bred. People don't fool around. If they are rearing a chicken breed -specialising in a specific breed it's going to be a ribbon winner or close to it.
    I tend to think that these Western black fowl will produce nothing but black. Unless there is Indonesian genetics involved I rather doubt anything resembling "wild type" will be produced.
    Jet black birds will be dominant. They may well have a variety of different comb type and naturally the degree of pigmentation is going to vary from bird to bird. There are also different kinds of pigment involved including typical melanin and eumelanin. Different black boned fowl carry different levels of these pigments and there are additional pigments accrued from additional genetic infusion involved as well. More specifically, the pigments responsible for producing vivid blue are inherited from a green junglefowl ancestor. I won't go into that right now but these pigments are involved in hyper melanism of the darkest cemani.


    That said, frizzled silky like stunts hatch with increasing frequency with each generation of line breeding. These birds should not be used to breed dragonbone but can certainly be used in other stock-or just eat them...

    It's essential to comprehend what genetic elements are going to be pivotal to your success.

    Chooks Chicks is developing a black boned fowl (from imported Indonesian stock) with a pea or leaf like elfin comb- ironically the comb of the Gambar taproot of many cemani in Indonesia. I came to agree with her- and think that comb type may be as- if not more- appropriate for North American climates than the gargantuan comb and wattles of equatorial lineages.

    The most important stock to avoid using is the silky. That's a disqualification of the largest degree. If you want to breed black boned breeds that are not the Indonesian type- crests and extra toes- the traits of silkies may be acceptable to a point- but to arrive at an Indonesian morphotype you've got to have the discipline to not use silkies, especially as your heirloom lineages will eventually be recombined with other poultier's best efforts and your silky outcrosses are going to screw everything up.

    That said, this lovely ashen grey bird is just gorgeous and I'd use her in a minute!!! WHAT?

    The most important mother stock- that is the female line that will serve as your reservoir is the Black Java. Don't worry about melanin yet- for now you just need the appropriate bloodstock. There is no better taproot for this constitution than large boned healthy Black Java hens. You'll never use a Black Java rooster so don't bother purchasing one.

    The next gene stock that will prove absolutely pivotal for that Black Java lineage is the absolutely best quality miniature Sumatran rooster you can find. He should be tiny and black or better yet dark blue.

    The Dark Blue Sumatran Bantam rooster is bred to the Black Java hen. F1 daughters are all keepers. That F1 lineage " New-Sunda" is what everyone ready to collaborate and cooperate should be ready to trade and move amongst one another. The very best rooster- and that's totally subjective- he may be dark skinned or just have the best conformation- or the best comb or better yet the best temperament- whatever your choice is- regardless of how close he is to "cemani" is held back. That F1 "New-Sunda" rooster is bred back to his mother. All other roosters go into the freezer. Do not breed from them.
    F2 Daughters of this backcross are also keepers but only breed from the darkest hens. Don't worry about their conformation just their pigmentation.

    Ok so you're wondering what the male lineage will be used other than the F1 "uncle brother" rooster - -back to him in a moment-
    The F1 "New-Sunda" females are to produce another lineage of F2 from which roosters will be bred to those darkest F2 hens produced through backcrossing.

    When everyone is clear on that convoluted mess I'll continue.

    So- there's your foundation- the mother stock.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
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  4. gootziecat

    gootziecat Chillin' With My Peeps

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    There is no doubt in my mind there are other people on BYC reading this thread with great interest and have aspired to breeding these birds. You have saved us costly mistakes and guided us in the proper direction. Thank you, Kermit, for your helpful and unselfish guidance. I'm sure I speak for many.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  5. You confused me completely.
    You do it and I'll do it and we'll compare results down the road --- OK?
     
  6. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    DDD you've already launched your ship. May your Grey Lady meet the furthest shores.

    For the rest of you, that don't have the feathered thumb of Dipsy Doodle Doo, follow the blue print. And please, someone with a linear brain please draw this out?

    Let me try again.

    A. Bantam Sumatran sire X Black Java dam= F1 " New- Sunda" ; Cull all roosters save for one.
    Retain the one F1 New Sunda rooster and breed him back to his mother the Black Java.
    All F1 New Sunda hens are saved for future breeding- select the best conformation and size. Don't worry about the pigmentation.
    B. F2 females produced from Black Java Dam bred back to her own son are selected for pigmentation. Don't worry about conformation or size; Cull all roosters save for one.
    Retain the one F2 New Sunda Rooster and breed him back to his mother/grandmother the Black Java ( or one of her full sisters if she passes away)

    C. Another rooster, which I will leave a mystery for now, but of a readily procurable South East Asian breed, is placed with the F1 New Sunda Hens producing F2a
    D. darkest F2 New Sunda hens are bred with darkest F2a males.

    I'll hold there for now.
    C.
     
  7. gootziecat

    gootziecat Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Quote: Would you elaborate why the Silkie screws up everything? Can you not get proper black melanistic color ? Or is it more not obtaining the Indonesian type? I am not questioning the truth of this, only curious for an explanation. Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  8. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Thousands of years ago and I mean Thousands- Poultiers in Indonesia started taking these frizzle silken stunt morphs produced in the selective breeding for black boned and put them aside. They bred them together and eventually ended up with the silky.
    They bred Austronesian blood - (Ganoi/ Malagasy) in as well- introducing a crest- originally the birds were naked necked- the whole breast was naked- and the head save for the top knot due to the Austronesian genetics- the Chinese- living in colder conditions select bred for more completely feathered birds and those with truly silken feathers versus frizzled silken.
    Extra toes eventually popped up and feathered feet- Silkies are a universe unto themselves. That said, DDD has this Grey Lady that appears to have everything but the kitchen sink= chicken sink in her genes and looks about perfect. I don't know if her progeny will have silky traits but there is always the problem that once you begin backcrossing- and backcrossing is necessary to increase the expression of eumelanins, those traits will emerge. I just like to keep silkies out of separate black boned stock - I don't use silky for anything actually.
    Love the little buggers and the silken mutation does arise in Huastec and Nikkei -I even hold back those birds and breed them to one another to produce more of the same. But I've never procured silky to add to that equation as I don't believe I'd be improving the carefully bred silky and I know I'd be muddying up the Huastec and Nikkei- and that stock is irreplaceable.
    I also learned that black silkies and white silkies and Japanese silkies are different from one another- arrived at separately- from different founder stock- related somewhere along the line so even crossing different silkies with one another has created a composite that could endanger the purebreds.

    -With these "New Sunda" ( as in New World Sunda -Sunda being a technical term for Indonesia)- I'd like to be able to eventually purchase stock from poultiers to use in my own selective breeding initiatives but if it has silky blood I won't be able to use it - except maybe the Grey Lady...- no actually I don't think I'd be using the Grey Lady - but if her progeny were to be included in a line I'd document that very carefully and keep a close eye on it. So I'm being selfish basically- and looking out for the collectors out there that want black boned birds as close to the true Indonesian morphotype as possible- the lineages carefully select bred- by definition and a matter of responsibility culling all silken mutations that arise in close inbreeding - -
    from the bloodlines. I personally like those mutations and may hold them back and breed them together- but as selective breeding experiments- their genetics are no good for future breeding.

    I think I could have more succinctly written- silken frizzled mutations arise in close breeding of Indonesian black boned stock that has exactly no silky genetics to begin with. They lack crests. They lack extra toes. It has been the tradition for the longest time to not use those birds for breeding.
    Adding silkies which are themselves descended of these culled birds, outcrossed early on with the completely unrelated race- the oldest Austronesian breed- the Malagasy/Ganoi- then carefully refined for thousands of years- breeding silky to silky- producing a perfect breed almost a species unto itself

    - adding silkies a highly refined breed carrying all the traits culled out of traditional breeding to the lineages of New Sunda would be counter productive -even irrevocably damaging the bloodlines of composites with rare imported genetics.

    There are a very few cemani/dragonbone in the USA and I've suggested they be used to breed with a very conservative handful of related breeds that share the genetic taproot of the original Indonesian strains- and am confident everyone if working together collectively and cooperatively- will arrive at the same place -predictably- and be able to trade and sell their respective stock of F1 and F2 and so on- safely- because there is no guess work involved-

    i think that a composite that will eventually give rise to a North American Cemani/Dragonbone- one that has used only this discrete handful of genetics-

    when that breed eventually is listed in the feathersite list of breeds the exact breeds to use to reconstitute the cemani would be listed- ostensibly with only that discrete handful of breeds used in the description of origins-

    A separate breed type could be produced out of Grey Lady with its own story- maybe a blue black boned that is a parallel breeding arriving at a very similar conclusion - but with it's own genetics- that would be very interesting because our generation would know that two different cemani morph strains exist using different genetic founders- just as there are in Indonesia- different breeds producing the cemani morph- independently- along with the Korean and Japanese Crow fowl- and so on.
    sorry- convoluted as ever - coffee on an empty stomach- back is out still
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  9. bekisar

    bekisar Out Of The Brooder

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    [​IMG]Hi Kermit..You posted..
    post #101 of 118
    3/2/12 at 7:45pm
    Thread Starter
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    If anyone is interested in black bone stock they need to let me know this coming week........... I am very interested in black boned Cemani type chickens ,so as you requested,I am letting you know. What are my options now? I am the guy in Florida that has those 2 hens from Robert DeG.of Vermont. I now also have a pair that is seven eighths Cemani with a little bit of "fly tie" blood mixed in.The top black hen is Mapuche Haustec.The bottom black hen is the Lady Katherine mix.The Cemani mix pair are in the center.
     
  10. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Wayne - looks like you're doing well there on your own. I'm still puzzled why my cousin sent you those two hens...I know Michelle tried to send you a Cemani rooster a few weeks ago but you didn't want it? So I have him for sale now...
     

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