the Blackest Ones: on exploring the significance of Cemani mutations

[Dipsy Doodle Doo]

I gave a friend a pea-ish combed fm pullet colored almost exactly like the girl on the right (I don't breed for brown/tan/red birds). She called today to tell me Phoenix ( she named her Phoenix) laid her first egg today and it is a beautiful turquoise-blue.
She raised RIRs and has a few of my frizzle Naked Neck green-eggers, so she can build her own line of *colored* fm's.

 

[Dipsy Doodle Doo]

Thousands of years ago and I mean Thousands- Poultiers in Indonesia started taking these frizzle silken stunt morphs produced in the selective breeding for black boned and put them aside. They bred them together and eventually ended up with the silky.

They bred Austronesian blood - (Ganoi/ Malagasy) in as well- introducing a crest- originally the birds were naked necked- the whole breast was naked- and the head save for the top knot due to the Austronesian genetics- the Chinese- living in colder conditions select bred for more completely feathered birds and those with truly silken feathers versus frizzled silken.

Extra toes eventually popped up and feathered feet- Silkies are a universe unto themselves. That said, DDD has this Grey Lady that appears to have everything but the kitchen sink= chicken sink in her genes and looks about perfect. I don't know if her progeny will have silky traits but there is always the problem that once you begin backcrossing- and backcrossing is necessary to increase the expression of eumelanins, those traits will emerge. I just like to keep silkies out of separate black boned stock - I don't use silky for anything actually.

Love the little buggers and the silken mutation does arise in Huastec and Nikkei -I even hold back those birds and breed them to one another to produce more of the same. But I've never procured silky to add to that equation as I don't believe I'd be improving the carefully bred silky and I know I'd be muddying up the Huastec and Nikkei- and that stock is irreplaceable.

I also learned that black silkies and white silkies and Japanese silkies are different from one another- arrived at separately- from different founder stock- related somewhere along the line so even crossing different silkies with one another has created a composite that could endanger the purebreds.



-With these "New Sunda" ( as in New World Sunda -Sunda being a technical term for Indonesia)- I'd like to be able to eventually purchase stock from poultiers to use in my own selective breeding initiatives but if it has silky blood I won't be able to use it - except maybe the Grey Lady...- no actually I don't think I'd be using the Grey Lady - but if her progeny were to be included in a line I'd document that very carefully and keep a close eye on it. So I'm being selfish basically- and looking out for the collectors out there that want black boned birds as close to the true Indonesian morphotype as possible- the lineages carefully select bred- by definition and a matter of responsibility culling all silken mutations that arise in close inbreeding - -

from the bloodlines. I personally like those mutations and may hold them back and breed them together- but as selective breeding experiments- their genetics are no good for future breeding.



I think I could have more succinctly written- silken frizzled mutations arise in close breeding of Indonesian black boned stock that has exactly no silky genetics to begin with. They lack crests. They lack extra toes. It has been the tradition for the longest time to not use those birds for breeding.

Adding silkies which are themselves descended of these culled birds, outcrossed early on with the completely unrelated race- the oldest Austronesian breed- the Malagasy/Ganoi- then carefully refined for thousands of years- breeding silky to silky- producing a perfect breed almost a species unto itself



- adding silkies a highly refined breed carrying all the traits culled out of traditional breeding to the lineages of New Sunda would be counter productive -even irrevocably damaging the bloodlines of composites with rare imported genetics.



There are a very few cemani/dragonbone in the USA and I've suggested they be used to breed with a very conservative handful of related breeds that share the genetic taproot of the original Indonesian strains- and am confident everyone if working together collectively and cooperatively- will arrive at the same place -predictably- and be able to trade and sell their respective stock of F1 and F2 and so on- safely- because there is no guess work involved-



i think that a composite that will eventually give rise to a North American Cemani/Dragonbone- one that has used only this discrete handful of genetics-



when that breed eventually is listed in the feathersite list of breeds the exact breeds to use to reconstitute the cemani would be listed- ostensibly with only that discrete handful of breeds used in the description of origins-



A separate breed type could be produced out of Grey Lady with its own story- maybe a blue black boned that is a parallel breeding arriving at a very similar conclusion - but with it's own genetics- that would be very interesting because our generation would know that two different cemani morph strains exist using different genetic founders- just as there are in Indonesia- different breeds producing the cemani morph- independently- along with the Korean and Japanese Crow fowl- and so on.

sorry- convoluted as ever - coffee on an empty stomach- back is out still

All that is really interesting. *Discrete* makes me smile.
The story behind mine is:
My brother and I were looking through a MMcM catalog and he bet me that I could not combine all the traits I thought were cool/interesting/unusual into one bird --- naked neck, black-skin, frizzle, giant, green-egger. That was in 2004. I haven't won the bet yet, but I have enjoyed every step of the way and made some cool birds --- and learned LOTS.
Hope your back feels better soon.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

So Kermit, maybe I am just too tired from pen swapping today but I missed how the sumatra x java could make cemani style birds. Am I just being dense and not soaking it in? We have lots of black/blue sumatra bantams with nice dark black faces and yellow skin, how would you make the black skin in the facial area spread to the rest of the body? I like the idea of imagining a sumatra x java cross, seems like it would combine some good traits.
Is it that the what would then be 3/4 java 1/4 sumatra would be bred to a cemani and that is where the black flesh would arrive?

Also, if anyone is interested, we will have more bantam black/blue sumatra eggs for sale soon, PM me for more info

 

[Resolution]

So Kermit, maybe I am just too tired from pen swapping today but I missed how the sumatra x java could make cemani style birds. Am I just being dense and not soaking it in? We have lots of black/blue sumatra bantams with nice dark black faces and yellow skin, how would you make the black skin in the facial area spread to the rest of the body? I like the idea of imagining a sumatra x java cross, seems like it would combine some good traits.
Is it that the what would then be 3/4 java 1/4 sumatra would be bred to a cemani and that is where the black flesh would arrive?

Also, if anyone is interested, we will have more bantam black/blue sumatra eggs for sale soon, PM me for more info

Forget about skin colour for a moment. Need to reframe the paradigm of the genetic equation. What do the Sumatra and Black Java have in common?

.. They're both derived from bloodstock originating in Indonesia, a place where chickens were domesticated and select bred independently from those of mainland Asia.
Please reread the thread for all the blah blah details. The crux is that recombining two things with a common denominator- no matter how far back that may be- you don't end up with something new. You end up with a facsimile of what the common ancestor of both resembled- especially genetically. Breed backward to New Batavia and then you're ready for imported genetics that will introduce the ink black genetics missing from the equation.


Until you've created the correct genetic matrix you're using water colours on canvas- wrong medium. You need the right genetic components in place so that you're painting with water colours on water colour paper- something that absorbs the pigments and holds it- allows for some blending on the page-allows for dilution and layering of distinct pigments. Oil painting is a whole different medium. I tend to trust in the East Asian discipline of selective breeding. Patience comes to those that wait. and Sacrifice self interest for the larger equation. Even if I've never been good at following the mandates....I do get it to some degree. I mean that's how the East Asians domesticated and refined all the plants and livestock we take for granted- from peonies and chrysanthemums to oranges, peaches and pears to Pekin ducks and Langshan chickens- they had to work as a cooperative- with a certain amount of concerted faith in the process -the wonderful entitlement of individualism and independence that are the hallmarks of American culture make successful selective breeding initiatives something close to miraculous- as everyone is right because everyone has an opinion and yada yada. If I promise to everyone reading this that they'll arrive at cemani mutations if they follow the blue print ~ 10% will trust that and the remaining 90% will say "see ya in Vegas!" - So Michael- I'll encourage you to reread the thread- and I know it's unwieldy- and follow the blue print. Don't bother with skin pigmentation until the Japanese blue print provided- and one dutifully copied from the Indonesians and repeated several times over in Japan- don't bother select breeding for pigment until the blue print says so and only with the genetics described unless you intend to create your own breed and that's your own journey.
I'm not giving up all this hoarded stock to the impetuous shake and bake method makers just yet. There's still room for chickens now that the boys are in college...their rooms were always messy anyway...

 

[bekisar]

Hi Kermit; This pix does not belong to me,but it shows"Captain Clink"which is not Cemani. He is Ponape/Saudeleur ,so that is one reason I did not get him. The other reason was that I had no money. My mom passed away and left me some "disposable income" which I used to buy the seven eighths Cemani pair I now have.Do you think I might get some really nice BLACK cemani morph type chicks from this pair?That is what I am in hopes of.My roo is named "Steve" and my hen is named "Inay"( That name means MOTHER in my wifes language of Bisaya.) I hope she will be the mother of many black meat/bone/skin birds.? I really do appreciate all you have done to help me in this .Thank you.Wayne B.

 

[Resolution]

Captain- is Ponape- he carries all the genes. There are a lot more breeding groups of black boned this year. They are very popular in Colorado as meat birds at ~ 25.00 per lb and their eggs sell for ~ 2.00 more per dozen ( soy free eggs =1.00 carnosine from black boned mother =1.00) than other farm fresh eggs. The quick answer is yes- there are black boned kedu being hatched this spring. Captain Clink lives on Martha's Vineyard. The one rooster I have left for sale is from my private label collection. And since my cousin sent you two birds that are nothing you needed I'll make sure to send you some stock this year. He doesn't have the feathered thumb...

 

[bekisar]

Thank you for the reply Kermit. I will send you an email off of this site with all my info. Please call or email me when you are ready to ship. I am so sorry that I did not know enough to appreciate Captain Clinks genetics. I promise to continue to educate myself and to try to make fewer mistakes like that one in the future.I spoil my birds very much with excellent food and care,and I keep them safe from preditors.I have an incubator too,just in case you want to saend eggs.Wayne

 

[Dipsy Doodle Doo]

So where will the fibromelan-ism (??) come from if it isn't existing in these birds?
You say not to worrry about pigment in the 'plan', but pigment is (for me) what this is about --- explain please (use short sentences and no references to ancient stuff).
Thanks!

 

[Resolution]

So where will the fibromelan-ism (??) come from if it isn't existing in these birds?
You say not to worrry about pigment in the 'plan', but pigment is (for me) what this is about --- explain please (use short sentences and no references to ancient stuff).
Thanks!

You'll have to reread this thread triple D, including all the long sentences, whole paragraphs and references to ancient stuff- if you want detailed analysis of the subject.
There are people out there with a better head for genetics than I. -Let's hope they chime in.

I do know that Fibromelanism expresses itself via mutation and that there are alleles involved in the cemani morphotype that do not code for fibromelanism per se but do code for things like blue and violet pigmentation of tissue, while still others are responsible for a greenish grey pigment within the tissue. Still others code for a deep dark brown and some for red and some for yellow. It's not a super simple equation unfortunately because the respective genetic makeup of founders is a complex topic itself.

Fibromelanism may not be expressed but these demes are nonetheless present in any number of Indonesian breeds. In order to create that cemani morph everyone is so crazy for you need to have an appropriate genetic reservoir and understand that cemani is a morph not a breed. That morph is fairly common in some select strains of certain Indonesian breeds due to genetic matrix of founders. If you know what to breed for and from what genetics and practice the discipline of the far easterner versus the impetuous westerner you can create the perfect foundation for future genetic infusion of birds carrying all sets of alleles.

Can't keep my eyes open any more going to bed- back at this later

 

[Svarthona]

Beautiful bird!

I've seen in my own project with the Swedish black hen mutts that there's really a lot of variation in the color of the skin, muscles and connective tissue. In my flock there's a wide variety splitting up and all parts of the birds (eyes, wattles/comb, skin, individual muscles, connective tissue) seem to be able to be dark pigmented (or not) independently.
One cockerel which developed dark violet looking comb/wattles turned out to be deep blue when plucked, dark skin and dark meat. Another one with violet looking comb and wattles had white skin but partly dark meat and the membranes around the bones were a deep black, he looked light blue when plucked (dark meat shining through the white skin). Years ago I also had one which showed areas of white, yellow and dark flecks on the skin in combination with regular light meat.
(I've also got some pictures of the dressed dinner birds too, just not sure if anybody would be interested in seeing those.)
One of the darkest ones I got last year


It is possible that it's the barring gene which "broke" the Fm in my flock, however the flecks of pigmented skin/meat do not only show up on barred birds, it's also those with solid plumage which can be partly pigmented. I'm also not sure if the Fm is "fully" there on the barred birds and just not fully expressed, or if it has partly crossed over just in the dark spots and needs more crossing over to fill in the blanks... While it is neat to have the surprise of varying degrees of pigmentation it also makes it kind of hard to pick good breeders. I tend to keep those which already showed pigmentation in skin, shanks and beaks as chicks, but I guess only time will tell if that really takes my project anywhere.
This is one with partly expressed Fm, he hatched with pigmented skin which sadly faded a lot and now it's very hard to capture in pictures, but there's still some darker areas in comb and wattles. So there's lots of different shades of pigmentation possible.