the Blackest Ones: on exploring the significance of Cemani mutations

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by Resolution, Jun 17, 2011.

  1. I gave a friend a pea-ish combed fm pullet colored almost exactly like the girl on the right (I don't breed for brown/tan/red birds). She called today to tell me Phoenix ( she named her Phoenix) laid her first egg today and it is a beautiful turquoise-blue.
    She raised RIRs and has a few of my frizzle Naked Neck green-eggers, so she can build her own line of *colored* fm's.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  2. All that is really interesting. *Discrete* makes me smile.
    The story behind mine is:
    My brother and I were looking through a MMcM catalog and he bet me that I could not combine all the traits I thought were cool/interesting/unusual into one bird --- naked neck, black-skin, frizzle, giant, green-egger. That was in 2004. I haven't won the bet yet, but I have enjoyed every step of the way and made some cool birds --- and learned LOTS.
    Hope your back feels better soon.
     
  3. flyingmonkeypoop

    flyingmonkeypoop Overrun With Chickens

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    So Kermit, maybe I am just too tired from pen swapping today but I missed how the sumatra x java could make cemani style birds. Am I just being dense and not soaking it in? We have lots of black/blue sumatra bantams with nice dark black faces and yellow skin, how would you make the black skin in the facial area spread to the rest of the body? I like the idea of imagining a sumatra x java cross, seems like it would combine some good traits.
    Is it that the what would then be 3/4 java 1/4 sumatra would be bred to a cemani and that is where the black flesh would arrive?

    Also, if anyone is interested, we will have more bantam black/blue sumatra eggs for sale soon, PM me for more info
     
  4. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Forget about skin colour for a moment. Need to reframe the paradigm of the genetic equation. What do the Sumatra and Black Java have in common?
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    .. They're both derived from bloodstock originating in Indonesia, a place where chickens were domesticated and select bred independently from those of mainland Asia.
    Please reread the thread for all the blah blah details. The crux is that recombining two things with a common denominator- no matter how far back that may be- you don't end up with something new. You end up with a facsimile of what the common ancestor of both resembled- especially genetically. Breed backward to New Batavia and then you're ready for imported genetics that will introduce the ink black genetics missing from the equation.


    Until you've created the correct genetic matrix you're using water colours on canvas- wrong medium. You need the right genetic components in place so that you're painting with water colours on water colour paper- something that absorbs the pigments and holds it- allows for some blending on the page-allows for dilution and layering of distinct pigments. Oil painting is a whole different medium. I tend to trust in the East Asian discipline of selective breeding. Patience comes to those that wait. and Sacrifice self interest for the larger equation. Even if I've never been good at following the mandates....I do get it to some degree. I mean that's how the East Asians domesticated and refined all the plants and livestock we take for granted- from peonies and chrysanthemums to oranges, peaches and pears to Pekin ducks and Langshan chickens- they had to work as a cooperative- with a certain amount of concerted faith in the process -the wonderful entitlement of individualism and independence that are the hallmarks of American culture make successful selective breeding initiatives something close to miraculous- as everyone is right because everyone has an opinion and yada yada. If I promise to everyone reading this that they'll arrive at cemani mutations if they follow the blue print ~ 10% will trust that and the remaining 90% will say "see ya in Vegas!" - So Michael- I'll encourage you to reread the thread- and I know it's unwieldy- and follow the blue print. Don't bother with skin pigmentation until the Japanese blue print provided- and one dutifully copied from the Indonesians and repeated several times over in Japan- don't bother select breeding for pigment until the blue print says so and only with the genetics described unless you intend to create your own breed and that's your own journey.
    I'm not giving up all this hoarded stock to the impetuous shake and bake method makers just yet. There's still room for chickens now that the boys are in college...their rooms were always messy anyway...
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  5. bekisar

    bekisar Out Of The Brooder

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    Hi Kermit; This pix does not belong to me,but it shows"Captain Clink"which is not Cemani. He is Ponape/Saudeleur ,so that is one reason I did not get him. The other reason was that I had no money. My mom passed away and left me some "disposable income" which I used to buy the seven eighths Cemani pair I now have.Do you think I might get some really nice BLACK cemani morph type chicks from this pair?That is what I am in hopes of.My roo is named "Steve" and my hen is named "Inay"( That name means MOTHER in my wifes language of Bisaya.) I hope she will be the mother of many black meat/bone/skin birds.? I really do appreciate all you have done to help me in this .Thank you.Wayne B.[​IMG][​IMG]
     
  6. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

    Captain- is Ponape- he carries all the genes. There are a lot more breeding groups of black boned this year. They are very popular in Colorado as meat birds at ~ 25.00 per lb and their eggs sell for ~ 2.00 more per dozen ( soy free eggs =1.00 carnosine from black boned mother =1.00) than other farm fresh eggs. The quick answer is yes- there are black boned kedu being hatched this spring. Captain Clink lives on Martha's Vineyard. The one rooster I have left for sale is from my private label collection. And since my cousin sent you two birds that are nothing you needed I'll make sure to send you some stock this year. He doesn't have the feathered thumb...
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2012
  7. bekisar

    bekisar Out Of The Brooder

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    Thank you for the reply Kermit. I will send you an email off of this site with all my info. Please call or email me when you are ready to ship. I am so sorry that I did not know enough to appreciate Captain Clinks genetics. I promise to continue to educate myself and to try to make fewer mistakes like that one in the future.I spoil my birds very much with excellent food and care,and I keep them safe from preditors.I have an incubator too,just in case you want to saend eggs.Wayne
     
  8. So where will the fibromelan-ism (??) come from if it isn't existing in these birds?
    You say not to worrry about pigment in the 'plan', but pigment is (for me) what this is about --- explain please (use short sentences and no references to ancient stuff).
    Thanks!
     
  9. Resolution

    Resolution Chillin' With My Peeps

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    You'll have to reread this thread triple D, including all the long sentences, whole paragraphs and references to ancient stuff- if you want detailed analysis of the subject.
    There are people out there with a better head for genetics than I. -Let's hope they chime in.

    I do know that Fibromelanism expresses itself via mutation and that there are alleles involved in the cemani morphotype that do not code for fibromelanism per se but do code for things like blue and violet pigmentation of tissue, while still others are responsible for a greenish grey pigment within the tissue. Still others code for a deep dark brown and some for red and some for yellow. It's not a super simple equation unfortunately because the respective genetic makeup of founders is a complex topic itself.

    Fibromelanism may not be expressed but these demes are nonetheless present in any number of Indonesian breeds. In order to create that cemani morph everyone is so crazy for you need to have an appropriate genetic reservoir and understand that cemani is a morph not a breed. That morph is fairly common in some select strains of certain Indonesian breeds due to genetic matrix of founders. If you know what to breed for and from what genetics and practice the discipline of the far easterner versus the impetuous westerner you can create the perfect foundation for future genetic infusion of birds carrying all sets of alleles.

    Can't keep my eyes open any more going to bed- back at this later
     
  10. Svarthona

    Svarthona Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Beautiful bird!

    I've seen in my own project with the Swedish black hen mutts that there's really a lot of variation in the color of the skin, muscles and connective tissue. In my flock there's a wide variety splitting up and all parts of the birds (eyes, wattles/comb, skin, individual muscles, connective tissue) seem to be able to be dark pigmented (or not) independently.
    One cockerel which developed dark violet looking comb/wattles turned out to be deep blue when plucked, dark skin and dark meat. Another one with violet looking comb and wattles had white skin but partly dark meat and the membranes around the bones were a deep black, he looked light blue when plucked (dark meat shining through the white skin). Years ago I also had one which showed areas of white, yellow and dark flecks on the skin in combination with regular light meat.
    (I've also got some pictures of the dressed dinner birds too, just not sure if anybody would be interested in seeing those.)
    One of the darkest ones I got last year :)
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    It is possible that it's the barring gene which "broke" the Fm in my flock, however the flecks of pigmented skin/meat do not only show up on barred birds, it's also those with solid plumage which can be partly pigmented. I'm also not sure if the Fm is "fully" there on the barred birds and just not fully expressed, or if it has partly crossed over just in the dark spots and needs more crossing over to fill in the blanks... While it is neat to have the surprise of varying degrees of pigmentation it also makes it kind of hard to pick good breeders. I tend to keep those which already showed pigmentation in skin, shanks and beaks as chicks, but I guess only time will tell if that really takes my project anywhere.
    This is one with partly expressed Fm, he hatched with pigmented skin which sadly faded a lot and now it's very hard to capture in pictures, but there's still some darker areas in comb and wattles. So there's lots of different shades of pigmentation possible.
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