the Blackest Ones: on exploring the significance of Cemani mutations

[nicalandia]

Quote:
and also a lurker here.. I see, I just find people like you very rare here so I had to ask, I thought you were one of the old member of the Classroom at the coop, maybe Dr. Ron Okimoto, I am here to help people with simple genetics, when I get to involved in a debate I actually get a warning from the Mods, they dont like people to debate

 

[urjtobreed]

Hopefully people that really want to know more on the subject will read the research themselves and not rely on what Tim or I say.

I consider what is said on forums as potentially valuable information, but I also look up additional information from multiple sources to make my own conclusions.

My purpose for posting was to help people do just that, and not take what I say as Gospel. I try to verify everything I post, but acknowledge either myself or my sources could be wrong.

 

[urjtobreed]

I should check out your posts then ;-)

 

[tadkerson]

I went back and deleted my previous posts and I would ask all others to delete my post that is quoted. I will not debate the subject and will allow others to read the papers on the subject. Please disregard my post.

I have decided to leave this thread. I will start a thread on the subject.

Tim

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I will take a closer look at this paper, Thanks

 

[CanuckBock]

Quote: I went back and deleted my previous posts and I would ask all others to delete my post that is quoted. I will not debate the subject and will allow others to read the papers on the subject. Please disregard my post. Tim

Heel low:

Tim, I wish you had not been led to feel you needed to do this.

Having taught 7 year olds how to use Punnett Squares to solve blue dilution x blue dilution mating outcomes...I may say without a doubt that there are many ways to "skin a c@t."

I am new here but can see instantly that Tim has a style of teaching his own. He will reach persons I won't. Good show!

We all absorb things differently. We should be allowed to belch out our own styles to help others learn. Hmm, the world was flat for a lot longer than it was ever said to be round, eh?

Creative visions, colouring outside the lines with sights outside the box, methods that bend and sometimes break the rooles will often reach a wider span of the audience and bring them into the fold we hold so dear; the learning of inheritance genetics. Controversy, discussions, debates, and opposite sides of the coin are why "bad news" sells more papers! LOL

It is not so easy to just quote old time sensibility...like begets like, hatch plenty of chickens and cull hard, maximum chicks from minimum parents, begin with a "good start," and instinctively knowing when a bird has balance, proportion and reads well. Breeding is an artform full of luck more than a science but studying science sure helps enlighten the Fancier when backed into a corner facing a pickle and not knowing which route to take.

Warming up to genetics is very SCARY for many. The moment the "little letters" and superscripts start frothing forth, many brains switch to OFF mode and people stop absorbing. New approaches to old problems will spark interest in topics flogged over like dead horses...no dog food here!

Sigrid teaches colour genetics like making soup...I did the same before I even read her books or saw her posts on The Coop. The e-series to me was pork, beef, fish, veg, chicken soup broth....garnishings like green onion for barring/cuckoo, parsley for mottles, parmesan grated for lacings, etc. Whatever your take on the topic so long as it inspires others to have a go at grasping the understanding the problems faced.

People NEED to be encouraged to sink their teeth into studying inheritance genetics.

Back in 2007, being told by a 90+ year oldtimer stringman that having the occasional "white sport" pop outta my MDF Booteds, was great but it would have been far better if old man Gordon Ridler had been able to say to me, "You need one dose of recessive white to make your top coats pop on the Mille de Fleurs." How wise and wonderful was Mr. Ridler to have figured this all out on his own...brilliance...but an understanding of some inheritance genetics allow many of us to reserve our "ah ha" moments for improvements over having to repeatedly "re-invent the wheel!" We get to climb up on the shoulders of those that came before us and that is our starting place...way way way up thar! The sky's the limit, eh?

So why IS the sky blue?

I love genetics because in a few key strokes, no matter what language you speak at home...C/c means hetero for rec white. Add that to me "recipe" for MDF and we are rocking and rolling right along again.

I am hardly qualified to teach genetics but I do. To all walks of life and ages; from children on thru to adults that were told by "Idiots" themselves that they were DUMB and had no chance in heck of learning genetic inheritance. Sure it takes more time, takes efforts to debunk all the negativity that abounds about genetics and understanding it. But it is so worth it when a child stands up and spews stats of 25% black, 50% blue, 25% splash. You are NOT overly intelligent if you can complicate genetics.

You ARE intelligent if you can make it simple to understand. The use of complicated big hard to spell right words does not make you a genius. Far from it. The KISS principle rocks!!!

I will quote a paragraph from my fav author and mentor, Dr. Clive Carefoot in his book, Creative Poultry Breeding, page 75:

Quote from Dr. Clive Carefoot:
Using unconventional styles to teach will often reach out to persons that the conventional methods cannot touch. Some learn by hands on, some are visual, some have to take things physically apart and work problems out in their hands, some need to be challenged and told they are doing it wrong and need to prove it can be done THEIR way, some read and get it, some have to be shown over and over and others strike out on their own, learning on the run. As many ways to learn as there are students I suppose.

The point is teaching has to be received and used by the student; tested, tried and true. The biggest compliment to the teacher is when the student exceeds the capabilities of the teacher. Teachers are stepping stones to greatness...therefore a teacher often gets kicked in the process...ha ha ha...sometimes we even stuff a foot of our own in our gobs too, trying to get them to GET IT! Thankless endeavours.

Move along now Grasshopper, you've out grown the nest...fly be free and explore to learn more than I can show you! Let me be and eat yer dusty dander...LOL

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In 2009, I invented the use of Lego (nfI) blocks inside plastic Easter Eggs to teach colour genetics; pheno and geno! Published the method in an article in the Feather Fancier. Never seen another person do it yet and still marvel that nobody else has chosen to use this method. I use plushy ducks, coloured up pink and blue, to teach gender inheritance in mammals and then birds/reptiles and some fish (different so could be scary!)

So who's afraid of the big bad furry duck...come on...afraid of a plushy duck? Suck it up Buttercup!

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More plushy ducks to teach blue dilution on Punnett Squares!

Finger painting to revisit our primary colours and learn about dilution and extension of colours. Learning gets messy!

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Whatever reaches the masses and makes inheritance genetics common place...that should be our mutual goals. I know it is one of mine!

Please continue to carry on Tim...you have my personal blessings...love your creative thought provoking style.

You can always straighten out the rules IF you BEND them a widdle bit with a little more hot air to steam them back to the straight and narrow. I beak off all the time and learn the best lessons one learns are when things go terribly off course. If you don't test the limits, how do you learn where the breaking point is? Gotta break a few eggs, even go so far as to whip them into shape to make an omelette, right? Luv omelettes!

Don't be too safe, don't be overly cautious; that's far too boring and genetics so ROCK our worlds, upside down and backwards pretty please!

People use to dismiss epigenetics (how gene activity is altered without changes in the DNA sequences) as hocus pocus and now we see the swing towards more acceptance to explain how starving parents can make a race of more efficient food converting offspring. We are not GODs ourselves and we mere weakling humans that are trying to decipher what the Creator did in a week's time (and resting on a Sunday even).

Whatever works...the one sole focus in ANY discussion or post or thread should be the ongoing improvement of the masses towards the understanding of how one goes about improving the quality of the poultry we possess.

Please be kind to one another and let the brilliance in others shine! We all need to work together for the betterment of the masses as a united front. We attract a lot more flies with honey than...and it IS all about getting noticed...right??

Peace, love, joy in learning, and above all, continue with the pursuit of happiness.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Thanks that was a nice read

 

[Poultriary]

I know someone who is working on a long-tail with the Fm gene. In fact, I have a pair of his culls that I swapped that are 3/4 Ayam Cemani, 1/4 Onagadori. I'm crossing them to American Game Bantams to try to get ultrablack AGBs.

Interestingly, I did an early hatch of these two birds, which are showing a Birchen phenotype. Only two hatched (it was January, a little early) and neither came out as Birchen. One is pure black and looks pretty much like an Ayam Cemani. The other is white-feathered, though has the black skin and shanks with a mulberry comb.

 

[nicalandia]

I know someone who is working on a long-tail with the Fm gene. In fact, I have a pair of his culls that I swapped that are 3/4 Ayam Cemani, 1/4 Onagadori. I'm crossing them to American Game Bantams to try to get ultrablack AGBs.

Interestingly, I did an early hatch of these two birds, which are showing a Birchen phenotype. Only two hatched (it was January, a little early) and neither came out as Birchen. One is pure black and looks pretty much like an Ayam Cemani. The other is white-feathered, though has the black skin and shanks with a mulberry comb.

you are lucky American Game Bantams have id+(dark slate shanks) as this will allow full FM expression, its just a matter of breeding the black kin birds back to american game bantams

 

[Phage]

I went back and deleted my previous posts and I would ask all others to delete my post that is quoted. I will not debate the subject and will allow others to read the papers on the subject. Please disregard my post.

Tim

This is so sad.

All these informative posts (by everyone) over the last few days have been revolutionary for my state of knowledge. Each presents information in a different way so it become more comprehensible. Pretty sure there is much no-one actually yet knows but each person adds a different angle/snippet of info to the big picture.
That is how science moves forward, and the whole point of scientific papers.