The Buckeye Thread

[smfildes]

Hey Joey,

I guess I have Champion Bantam Buckeyes since they've been on Champion row. I plan on being the largest Bantam Buckeye Breeder in the USA. I might be that already. Making many pens for them for select breeding.

I'm confused about BB not meaning anything since your club has given me trophies for my Bantans BB and RB when they weren't on Champion row. What was the meaning of that. I thought you only had the 1 pair of Bantam Buckeye's that John gave you. In which I probably gave him.

 

[AinaWGSD]

<<~~ Just because a bird makes "Best of Breed" at a show doesn't mean that it can be considered a "Champion" unless it tops the class.>>

If it is BOB... isn't it the best in "That Class" and if it is the best In "that" class.... isn't it the "champion" of "that class" ?

Not quite. In the nomenclature of chicken shows you have Variety, Breed, and Class. "Best of Variety" (this one doesn't so much apply to Buckeyes as there is only one variety, but is applicable to many breeds...for example Wyandottes have gold laced, silver laced, black, white, etc and Old English Games have 24 different recognized varieties) means that it is the best of that one particular color/pattern of a particular breed. Then there's "Best of Breed." Then "Best of Class," the Buckeye is in the American class, and in order to win Best of Class a Buckeye would have to beat not only all the other Buckeyes in a show, but also all of the Rhode Island Reds, Plymouth Rocks, Wyandottes, Chantecler, Dominiques, Hollands, Javas, Jersey Giants, Lamonas, New Hampshires, and Rhode Island Whites in that same show. Then, if you win Best in Class, you can go on to compete against the other Best in Class winners from the other classes for a shot at Best in show (which would require beating the Best in Class from all 11 other chicken classes and 9 other poultry species). And since I haven't actually shown poultry myself, I don't know the nuances of the "Champion" title in the poultry world, but I do know that in the world of dog showing you need to accomplish multiple "bests" in in multiple shows in order to claim "champion."

So, you can see how getting Best of Breed, while certainly not an accomplishment to belittle in most cases is not the same as Best in Class. Depending on the show and who else shows up, Best in Breed may or may not be an impressive accomplishment. I showed rabbits in FFA at the local fair. I won Best in class for all of the classes I entered. Sounds great, right? Not really, since my rabbits were the ONLY ones at the fair. Best in Breed with little or no competition means very little. On the other hand, if you are at a large show and there are a lot of great birds in all of the different breeds and varieties being shown, including your own, then Best of Breed may actually be more important than Best in Show. If there are 100 good Buckeyes at a show and you beat all of them to get Best in Breed, but are beaten for Best in Class by a very good White Rock, for example, then Best in Breed is still pretty good.

 

[slfarms]

Hey Joey,

I guess I have Champion Bantam Buckeyes since they've been on Champion row.  I plan on being the largest Bantam Buckeye Breeder in the USA.  I might be that already.  Making many pens for them for select breeding.  

I'm confused about BB not meaning anything since your club has given me trophies for my Bantans BB and RB when they weren't on Champion row.  What was the meaning of that.  I thought you only had the 1 pair of Bantam Buckeye's that John gave you.  In which I probably gave him.

Hi Sharon. Show meet trophies are different from APA show wins and trophies. What others are referencing are APA wins.

 

[Blueface]

Hey Joey,

I guess I have Champion Bantam Buckeyes since they've been on Champion row.  I plan on being the largest Bantam Buckeye Breeder in the USA.  I might be that already.  Making many pens for them for select breeding.  

I'm confused about BB not meaning anything since your club has given me trophies for my Bantans BB and RB when they weren't on Champion row.  What was the meaning of that.  I thought you only had the 1 pair of Bantam Buckeye's that John gave you.  In which I probably gave him.

Hi Sharon,

That sounds like an admirable goal! Probably one that won't be to terrible hard to accomplish. I've seen them, they are nice birds. I've got a couple pens of them being mated. Some come from John and some come from another one of my friends. In all, I have two trios. I don't plan on showing these birds but their offsprings will probably be nice specimens. I'm excited about that.

Taking credit for another man's work is bold. They may have come by way of you, but only John knows that considering he told me that he raised them. Only he really knows.

As per any club event, BB and RB of that breed is recognized whether the APA recognizes them for advanced honors or not. The end goal is to promote that particular breed for what's present on that day. Sometimes the bird is nice enough to advance in the eyes of the judge where as others really are outclassed. You would have gotten recognized by the ABC whether you went to Champion Row or not just on the breed alone. So the meaning of that was you had the best bantam bucks there that day. The ABC was showing its gratitude to you and others for taking on the task of raising and showing this particular breed of fowl. Since membership is free; it is a very nice thing for the club to donate such awards.

I hope that relieves any confusion you have.

 

[smfildes]

Thanks, that makes it clearer now. As you know, John and I share lots and lots of birds. If he needs something I have, I give it to him if I have extra, and visa versa. We have been doing that for a least 5 years. My bantams have a lot of Urch's blood, as well as John's blood. I'm not taking credit for his work. But, since we share a lot, who knows who's who, or what's what. They just look nice.. Soon I will have my own line which are looking pretty nice now, but could use some more work.

Just got off the phone with Dwyne Urch and his Bantans have just started to lay. Will put more of his blood back into my flock.

 

[smfildes]

Quote: That I know. Just didn't understand why BB didn't mean anything.

 

[Blueface]

That I know.  Just didn't understand why BB didn't mean anything.  

It's not that it doesn't mean anything; it's just that every breed as a BB and the breed usually doesn't have a large turnout of birds or exhibitors for that matter. If the turnout is larger its usually because an exhibitor brought the lion share of the entries.

You have seen birds that are rare and in pretty rough shape still get BB. It's a measure of sorts for the birds that are present that day but how well do they stack up against the rest of the class? Many times the buckeyes don't for various reasons and that is a shame because the breed when bred properly should be able to compete and beat all American class breeds!!

 

[Blueface]

One thing that people should be made aware of is this "certified" flock mumbo jumbo that I've been reading about. I don't believe the APA acknowledges it.

Questions that I want you to think about is: Since when does a Buckeye need to be "certified" for it to be a Buckeye? Are those terms used to basically peddle "(questionable) quality" birds or do they have meaning? Who certifies these birds? Do their credentials actually have meaning or did they come out of a cracker-jacks box? Where would one go to actually obtain such a certification?

These are all very important questions so you are aware and don't waste your money or get taken advantage of! Don't get sucked into the ideology that just because an extra "meaningful" adjective is put in front of the breed name, they are any less or better than birds from other flocks.

This idea transcends across more breeds than just the Buckeye. So be mindful and don't pay the elevated prices for sub-par birds.

At the end of the day, the term STANDARD BRED POULTRY should be used to describe the Buckeye. This is the terminology that the American Poultry Association started with and supports to this day!

 

[fowlman01]

Regarding Best of Breed. IN the ABA/APA Best of Breed is the CHAMPION of the breed. Champion is thrown around in a lot of ways The only way to know what really happened is to be at the show and look at the competition. I once won a class that only had 5 birds in it. Big deal right? Well the bird went on to win the national show. A person can win a CLASS champ with 150 in it, but they can be all junk birds. There are to many variables to use ribbons as an advertisement of how good your birds are. Poultry Press used to print all the placings up to fifth in all the big shows in the old days then you could see who was showing and who was winning the majority of the placings. Someone could win Best of Class, but have only one good bird that wins at a lot of shows. A lot of reputations are built on one or two birds that happen to be so good they do a lot of winning while they are still showable. Strength of breeding is shown by exhibitors that win with young birds and dominate 1-5.....or how many birds they enter.. In the old days I would want to have BB, RB and first through whatever I entered. If you see a breeder that can take all four firsts with four birds consistently you have a good breeder. But......no one can win all the time.....no one!

RE "Certified" chickens or flocks. The APA does not certify flocks nor do they endorse anything associated with it. The APA does not even have a policy on what is a "heritage" bird. If someone wants to certify your flock for any reason send them down the road.

If you really want a chicken certified I will do it for about $4000.000 and I will re certify it every 90 days for just an additional $200.00 each time for paperwork only In addition I will also make you a minister at absolutely no charge. Dr of Divinity will require a nominal upcharge.

There have been scam artists in chickens since the 1800's.......probably back in Cesars time.

Walt

 

[Blueface]

Hey Walt; I figured this subject matter would bring you around. I agree that any kind of certification is a joke purely ran by a scam artist! It's sad that this type of thing is being done. The guy who is doing it knows who he is and if any of you have fallen for his scam; I hope you learned from it!!

As for the use of "champion"; you consider "best of Breed" a champion? That's interesting......I see your point in your explanation. Does the SOP offer that explanation? I see it as a tool to peddle a bunch of birds!! So if a person wants to sell birds and get their name on the map with a "champion" title, all he has to do is buy a rare breed, raise them for 8-10 months, go to a couple shows; get a couple "best of breed" cage cards and now he can say he has champion birds....no matter the details?!?! You know this happens and you know what I'm getting at. I think that term is thrown around to often.

Aren't national shows usually pretty big? What were you showing to only have 5 birds in the class? Bill Wulff often tells me that you only need 1 bird on any given day and he is right.

I do agree with you about having generations of success but I disagree with the use of young birds; young will only get you so far, IMO. What matters to me is how they mature and maintain themselves year in and year out along with reproducibility. A well bred cock bird will ALWAYS beat a well bred cockerel if the two birds are equal. That cockerel won't have a cock body and that will be his disadvantage. Although I've done well in the fall shows; I find the shows in the fall to be no comparison to the spring shows when the cocks are in full bloom!! Anybody can raise young fowl for 8-10 months and show them but can they maintain the show quality of their fowl 2-3-4 years of age? Heck, I know a bunch of guys that raise LF breeds that have a hard time getting their birds to live let alone breed past 3-4 years old. Everybody sees this aspect differently though?!?!